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  #106  
Old 10-11-2010, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skid Row Joe View Post
Tyler,

You have certainly had your share of heartbreaking mechanical failures on your countless owned Benzes, yet you've prevailed and keep on buying, fixing, and usually re-selling them.

My hat's off to you! I don't think I could have persevered the heartache & breakdowns this ugly in nature.
Remarkably I've only lost money on 2 of the 15 I've had in the last few years. Ol' Turbo (the first big project, drove for 35000 miles) and the original green excelsior, which got in a minor accident.

The magic has certainly worn off with me and these cars though. The old ones are rampant with age related issues, and the new ones are so complicated I can't even check the oil without going to the dealer. It is so much easier to make money on domestic vehicles (trucks and SUVs especially). They usually don't break, and when they do I have an endless supply of cheap parts and labor.

I had been without a W123 for 8 months, and can't believe how crude Bullet feels. I'm too spoiled now to even consider taking one on a cross country trip.

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  #107  
Old 10-11-2010, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TylerH860 View Post
A similar fix was attempted with Ol' Turbo from the previous owner. There was no warning when it did this...





Just popped right off, all of the sudden. I had driven the car almost 5000 miles, and who knows how many the previous owner did on the repair. I was lucky to catch the oil pressure drop immediately, shut off the engine and pull over to the side of the road.
I am a pessimistic person. But, I cannot imagine that my Hose with 2 Hoses Clamps on each end is going to slip off.
But, heat, pressure, vibration and time can have bad effects on anything.
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  #108  
Old 10-11-2010, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
I am a pessimistic person. But, I cannot imagine that my Hose with 2 Hoses Clamps on each end is going to slip off.
But, heat, pressure, vibration and time can have bad effects on anything.
The side that slid off did have 2 clamps on it. Happened with no warning oil dribbles or anything. Who knows how long it was rigged this way with the PO.
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1985 500SL Euro w/ AMG bits 130k
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1980 240D Stick China 188k
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  #109  
Old 10-11-2010, 05:24 PM
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I did the clamp thing as well, and there were two clamps and it still slipped off after 1k (the barb wasn't long enough for two clamps anyways). I put it back on tighter with one clamp each, and that held for 10k, then I pulled the engine and got the OE hoses.

I think the main risk is simply not clamping it right.
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  #110  
Old 10-11-2010, 05:58 PM
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Makes me glad I tackled the job by R & Ring my old oil-cooler lines with new ones on my '83 300SD. It took several hours, but I didn't have a lift - just jack stands to get r done. The fear I had was that that coupling receiver threads on the oil-cooling radiator might sheer-off when unscrewing the old line points of contact - or when replacing the new coupling lines when snugging them up to the old cooling radiator. Just lucky - all went well.
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  #111  
Old 11-12-2012, 12:19 PM
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do you remember offhand what size that hose was? or have the spare hose to read the goodyear # off?

I did the exact same thing on my 300sd and it lasted at least 50K or so and now i need to do it on my "new" 300sd. But I don't want to leave it open while I head over to the hydraulic shop and buy the 3' of hose......


Thanks in advance?
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  #112  
Old 11-12-2012, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
I've been mulling over your solution for the replacement hoses and I don't see any large risk here.

The hose is definitely as good as the factory hose offered by M/B. It's very unlikely that the hose will ever fail prematurely.

So, the question of suitability revolves around the clamps. If the double clamps provide the necessary sealing capability under the pressure of the oil system (maybe 50 psi.......??), and there are no leaks, I don't see the clamps failing in the future. Getting larger clamps that can offer higher clamping pressure is not desired as it greatly distorts the hose.

The only point of concern is the hose beneath the clamps. This area is subject to long term degradation.........in similar manner to the coolant hoses.........and changing the hose every few years would probably be a wise investment.

Other than the break with tradition...........does anyone else see a technical issue with this solution other than the need to replace the hose on a more frequent basis?

There is a much better clamp available for silicone hose. The hose substrates ability to not deform further with time and temperature is the issue or at least one of them to me with clamps as you mention Brian.

I have experimented with using a glue on metal barbs that will act as a common adhesive point for one applied to the hose material. There is no single purpose glue that will cover metal and hosing materials all by itself well that I am aware of.

I am a great believer in glue joints constructed or designed well. With high pressure clamps if the hose material is pretty stable. A saftey wire might be incorporated to aid in pressure not blowing the hose off if the clamps action effect relaxes somewhat over time. This safety wire fixated to the clamp and forward to a larger clamp or front wrapped around or anchored forward the fitting where possible.

Many hose materials will rot and soften with age has to be kept in consideration. Vulkanization of the hose material to the metal does not seem to be enough if it occurs with these cooler hoses and with certain materials it must.

Typically a coolant hose for example can form a better grip than that retained over time with a standard clamp. More self adjusting wider spring type clamps may be better but cannot generate the initial pressure required for this application. Unless somewhere out there may have extreme tension units available in comparison to the standard engine coolant ones.

It does seem strange to me that the design allows full oil pump pressure to be developed in the hoses at any time. Without looking at it too hard I would have expected just the restriction of the oil cooler if much at all between the input pressure applied and the atmosphere besides the neglishable hose friction restriction to have been a better design overall. This making it into a fixed pressure loop by design during some of the operational time does not seem to be that smart. Although it does avoid the initial cost of a scondary oil pump function for oil cooling only.

I would stay away from any silicone based type of hose. It has the durability we are looking for in many applications. I just have never obtained any trust in terminating it to barbs or whatever. Or a fairer statement perhaps is I have never acomplished it to my total satisfaction. What success I have experienced took too much effort in comparison to other materials but did work. I needed the ultra violet protection.

The important thing is that replacement of these hoses should be a general maintenance item. Especially if it is felt they are thirty years old. A person can seriously live to regret ignoring them. I do not think the manufacturer and their engineers had any conception of just how long these cars would remain in service originally.

Last edited by barry12345; 11-12-2012 at 02:11 PM.
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  #113  
Old 11-12-2012, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
I agree on the 617.

However, please make make another opinion........or confirm same.......if the pair of hoses cost $350.

This is the situation with the SDL's.
Plain and simple the replacement factory sourced hoses are just too exensive for what they are in my opinion.
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  #114  
Old 11-12-2012, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TylerH860 View Post
The side that slid off did have 2 clamps on it. Happened with no warning oil dribbles or anything. Who knows how long it was rigged this way with the PO.
The Word Prior Owner is an important comment. We don't know if He ever checked the Hoses.
We don't know what type or size Hose was used.
We don't know how long the Hoses were on there.
We don't know if anyone ever checked to see if the Clamps remeined tight.
Even the Stock Hoses srink and or get mushy as they get older. I would suspect that is what happend to the Hose the PO installed and why it slipped out.

Mine have been on for a least 4 Years now. It would cost about $20 to replace the sections of Hose if I had to (actually I still have extra Hose).
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  #115  
Old 11-12-2012, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rjz5400 View Post
do you remember offhand what size that hose was? or have the spare hose to read the goodyear # off?

I did the exact same thing on my 300sd and it lasted at least 50K or so and now i need to do it on my "new" 300sd. But I don't want to leave it open while I head over to the hydraulic shop and buy the 3' of hose......


Thanks in advance?
If I had it to do again I would go with Parker Hose. The GoodYear Slip Fit is inelastic.
I bought 1/2" ID GoodYear Hose and could not stretch it over the first barb. The next size up is 5/8" ID. But that is on a W123.

You should really measure your Hose Barbs and decide.

About 5 months ago I did the same to my Chevy Van Oil Cooler. I used 1/2" ID Parker Power Steering Hose sold at AutoZone.
I tried to use the 1/2" GoodYear Hose that I could not use on the Mercedes but found that the 1/2" ID Parker was a tighter fit.

I ask Autozone if they sold the 5/8" Parker Powersteering Hose and they said the did. Sold by the Foot.
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  #116  
Old 11-12-2012, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by barry12345 View Post
There is a much better clamp available for silicone hose. The hose substrates ability to not deform further with time and temperature is the issue or at least one of them to me with clamps as you mention Brian.

I have experimented with using a glue on metal barbs that will act as a common adhesive point for one applied to the hose material. There is no single purpose glue that will cover metal and hosing materials all by itself well that I am aware of.

I am a great believer in glue joints constructed or designed well. With high pressure clamps if the hose material is pretty stable. A saftey wire might be incorporated to aid in pressure not blowing the hose off if the clamps action effect relaxes somewhat over time. This safety wire fixated to the clamp and forward to a larger clamp or front wrapped around or anchored forward the fitting where possible.

Many hose materials will rot and soften with age has to be kept in consideration. Vulkanization of the hose material to the metal does not seem to be enough if it occurs with these cooler hoses and with certain materials it must.

Typically a coolant hose for example can form a better grip than that retained over time with a standard clamp. More self adjusting wider spring type clamps may be better but cannot generate the initial pressure required for this application. Unless somewhere out there may have extreme tension units available in comparison to the standard engine coolant ones.

It does seem strange to me that the design allows full oil pump pressure to be developed in the hoses at any time. Without looking at it too hard I would have expected just the restriction of the oil cooler if much at all between the input pressure applied and the atmosphere besides the neglishable hose friction restriction to have been a better design overall. This making it into a fixed pressure loop by design during some of the operational time does not seem to be that smart. Although it does avoid the initial cost of a scondary oil pump function for oil cooling only.

I would stay away from any silicone based type of hose. It has the durability we are looking for in many applications. I just have never obtained any trust in terminating it to barbs or whatever. Or a fairer statement perhaps is I have never acomplished it to my total satisfaction. What success I have experienced took too much effort in comparison to other materials but did work. I needed the ultra violet protection.

The important thing is that replacement of these hoses should be a general maintenance item. Especially if it is felt they are thirty years old. A person can seriously live to regret ignoring them. I do not think the manufacturer and their engineers had any conception of just how long these cars would remain in service originally.
I degreased the Barbs and the ID of the Hose with Brake Cleaner and coated the Barbs with Silicon Sealant. In my experience Silicon Sealant also somewhat glues stuff together if the surface is dry and degreased; and, of couse I used the Clamps after that.

If I remember correctly I spent extra to get the US made shielded type clamps.

The Mercedes Oil Cooler Hose Barb is not the proper one for the SlipFit/Push Lock type Hose but actually with the Proper Fitting you are not supposed to need a Hose Clamp.

Clearly the Stock Hoses have lasted a long time.

Some have had early failures with new aftermarket Oil Cooler Hoses.
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  #117  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:08 PM
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I also mentioned this way back towards the beginning of the thread.

Most of the add on Engine Oil and Transmission Coolers I have seen all used Hose with the normal type Worm Gear Clamps. But, the Barbs on the Coolers are made to fit the type of Hose that is to be used.

On the 84 300DW123 Oil Cooler Hoses the Hose Barbs are somewhere between 1/2" and 5/8" so American inch size Hoses are not a good fit.
That means that holding the Hose onto the Barb is more dependent on the Clamps then on the Add On type Oil Coolers.
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  #118  
Old 11-13-2012, 12:56 AM
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I went with aircraft-style AN fittings when I fabricated the oil cooler lines on my project.



The conversion requires two things.

First you need to prep the oil cooler itself, by drilling and tapping to accept an NPT fitting. The secret is to use a 3/4" step drill.



Then tap



I used a 90 degree fitting to keep the forces down on the radiator fitting.



The other thing you need to do is cut off the barb fitting and braze on -10 fittings onto your oil cooler hard lines.



The hoses are made up using stainless braid -10 hose. These are reusable fittings, so if the hoses ever start to weep, new hose can be done very simply. Here are the hoses ready to be installed.




I'm very happy with the results and the look on the car.
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  #119  
Old 11-13-2012, 10:44 AM
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I was just sitting here trying to figure out the lateral push on the hose by the maximum oil presure.

At high oil pressure such as present when engine is reving . Maybe only a 35 pound lateral pull or push equivelant on the hose is duplicated by the internal oil pressure at most I suspect. A safety wire should prevent an actual blow off.

That is the highest risk factor I would think. On reflection I cannot think of any good really effective glues that will withstand the type of temperatures present with the hot oil for long.

A compression type ring soldered on to the barb if possible would also act as a reinforcing hose retainer for a clamp that is losing its clamping pressure because of the instability of the hose material or more compression of its material over time. Under heat and stress the hose over time should also conform to the bulge as well increasing the overall retention of it.

I would want to rig up a test jig to make sure the intended hose could be slipped over the soldered on ring before proceeding. Maybe this is where the mistake is occuring as there is no enlarged portion of the barb near the end as is convention in most slide on hose terminations. Always present usualy when screw or spring compression type clamps are intended.

I have not redone any oil cooler lines on these mercedes. Anyways some form of circle soldered on or near the end of the barb in combination with a safety wire if possible to incorporate should eliminate any possibility of a blow off unless the replacement hose has almost totally rotted.. If this was the situation it would probably just rupture on the exposed portion of hose first. Without this soldered on item it would have blown off much earlier. I wonder if a compression ring as found in compression fittings might be suitable. They are sold loose.

On reflection over the years some of us at least have seen hoses blow off in situations where there is not a larger diameter area present on a barb before the clamp. Someone may come up with another well fitting metal ring that can be soldered on.

The hoses may have to be heated to slip over it or one brand of hose may prove easier to use. At least this should help get us on the right track when dealing with the replacement of the hoses on the oil coolers. It may also be of some additional help as the sae sized replacement hoses are not the same diameter as the metric barb.

The bottom line is perhaps we just missed that a hose clamp situation alone is just meant to stop leakage basically. Not a good approch to stop the lateral push by the internal oil pressure. The replacement hose is perhaps being abused in an attempt to overcome the lateral force situation by the current approaches talked about. My feeling is almost everyone would try to overclamp and this is not the intention of the manufactures of the hose to laterally secure it alone on an straight barb when under pressure. In fact a straight barb is poor engineering in this form of hose replacement application.

If any member tries this approach post what you located for a solder on type of ring. And the brand of hose used. Since some of my hoses should be replaced I will try to do this but currently have absolutly no time to work on cars currently. Just too many irons in the fire unfortunatly. I have to live with the guilt that I am taking the time to post currently and read on other days. Just do not want to drift away from this site. There is usually something interesting going on. Somewhat like an old serial radio show. Almost something for everyone in my opinion..

Last edited by barry12345; 11-13-2012 at 11:22 AM.
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  #120  
Old 11-13-2012, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mach4 View Post
I went with aircraft-style AN fittings when I fabricated the oil cooler lines on my project.



The conversion requires two things.

First you need to prep the oil cooler itself, by drilling and tapping to accept an NPT fitting. The secret is to use a 3/4" step drill.



Then tap



I used a 90 degree fitting to keep the forces down on the radiator fitting.



The other thing you need to do is cut off the barb fitting and braze on -10 fittings onto your oil cooler hard lines.



The hoses are made up using stainless braid -10 hose. These are reusable fittings, so if the hoses ever start to weep, new hose can be done very simply. Here are the hoses ready to be installed.




I'm very happy with the results and the look on the car.
Great Pics!

All the work I did to install the Hoses was done with everthing on the Car.
I only bought the Hose and Clamps.
I already had the Harbor Freight type Dremal Tool to grind off the Collars.
(The Harbor freight Dremmel Type Tool has a weak link. There is a Rubber Sleeve between the Motor and the drive end that easily srtips out.)

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