Is it reasonable to 603 a GAS 124 300TE Wagon - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

777funk · #1 06-02-2008, 10:59 AM

w124 300TD's are rare it seems like. I think I read only 2000 or 3000 or something in that range exist in the USA.

Are the engine mounts the same between the OM603 and the gas version in the 300E's?

If not is it pretty difficult to get the diesel in to the gas w124 wagon?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/mercedes-wagon-1990-300-te-great-condition-needs-trans_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6755QQihZ001QQitemZ110258591747QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

You see these pretty frequently. But finding a good 87 300td is not so frequent and usually expensive. May be cheaper to have the engine installed into a 300te? Maybe?

Hatterasguy · #2 06-02-2008, 11:04 AM

Shouldn't be to hard, just all the little parts your going to need to make it work will be kind of a PITA to find.

How is the SLS run on the 603? Is it just a bolt on pump or is their more to it?

babymog · #3 06-02-2008, 11:21 AM

The SLS on the 603 is a dual-pump like the gas car, not sure if it's the same pump though.

I wouldn't tackle it without an '87 300D donor car on-hand, lots of little things from ignition switch and cluster to transmission.

I considered it so I could have the newer interior & bits of a later TE, lots of work though. If you enjoy the project it would certainly be worthwhile.

#4 06-02-2008, 11:26 AM

Be sure you can even register it first.
Two problems: Gas -> Diesel and older engine -> newer car.
The first can be easy, its been done before.
The second can be a problem since putting an older engine is a newer body is illegal for emissions reasons. You can put newer engines in old bodies all day long but not the other way around.

babymog · #5 06-02-2008, 01:10 PM

Now I've heard this here before, so pardon me for asking, but is it truly illegal? I can see defeating emission controls being illegal, and I expect it would be difficult to pass smog tests in areas that test, but what/who's law governs what engines can be put in what vehicle? We had a VR6 in a Vanagon, I've been considering a 603 in a (newer) Land Rover, does it matter if you don't have smog testing?

Here in Michigan (non-Detroit) you just drop an engine in and go, nobody asks or cares. It does interest me how that is viewed in other areas (as I'm hoping to relocate).

I'm not trying to challenge anyone or anything, just would like to be able to look it up somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

<> putting an older engine is a newer body is illegal for emissions reasons <>

sixto · #6 06-02-2008, 03:59 PM

Curiously, TTCummins' euro 300D sedan has its SLS pump driven by the cam.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=223915

With regards to the swap, I think wiring up the EDS and glow circuit will be the biggest PITA. Working on the key switch is far from fun too.

Sixto
87 300D

Zeitgeist · #7 06-02-2008, 05:02 PM

I think the climate control circuitry may be different, as well.

babymog · #8 06-02-2008, 07:19 PM

SLS driven by the cam, in a 124 Euro, I think I read that before. Is it a 603?

The glow circuit shouldn't be difficult, just use the 603 glow relay.

And I've been running a CCU from a '91 300TE 4matic for about 7months now, A/C and heat work normally. The one that the stealer sold the PO for a replacement was a gasser part number (RIP, shorted aux pump) so I figured I'd try it too.

#9 06-03-2008, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babymog

We had a VR6 in a Vanagon

VR6 into a Vanagon is easy since the engine is newer than the body, although its not a "certified" configuration since that engine was never in that vehicle.

Quote:

Now I've heard this here before, so pardon me for asking, but is it truly illegal? I can see defeating emission controls being illegal, and I expect it would be difficult to pass smog tests in areas that test, but what/who's law governs what engines can be put in what vehicle?

From:
www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf

Quote:

ENGINE SWITCHING FACT SHEET
UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20460
March 13, 1991
OFFICE OF AIR AND RADIATION

Pursuant to frequent requests for information received by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
(EPA) regarding the legality and effects of engine switching, this document will summarize federal law
and policy pertaining to this matter, and will discuss other related issues.

A. Federal Law
The federal tampering prohibition is contained in section 203(a)(3) of the Clean Air Act (Act), 42
U.S.C. 7522(a)(3). Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act prohibits any person from removing or rendering
inoperative any emission control device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor
vehicle engine prior to its sale and delivery to an ultimate purchaser and prohibits any person from
knowingly removing or rendering inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and
delivery, and the causing thereof. The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section by a
manufacturer or dealer is $25,000; for any other person, $2,500. Section 203(a)(3)(B) of the Act
prohibits any person from manufacturing or selling, or offering to sell, or installing, any part or
component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine where a
principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or
element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, and where the person
knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or is being installed for
such use. The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section is $2,500.

EPA received many questions regarding the application of this law to a situation where one engine is
removed from a vehicle and another engine is installed in its place. EPA's policy regarding "engine
switching" is covered under the provisions of Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum No. lA
(Attachment 1). This policy states that EPA will not consider any modification to a "certified
configuration" to be a violation of federal law if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions
are not adversely affected. In many cases, proper emission testing according to the Federal Test
Procedure would be necessary to make this determination.

A "certified configuration" is an engine or engine chassis design which has been "certified" (approved)
by EPA prior to the production of vehicles with that design. Generally, the manufacturer submits an
application for certification of the designs of each engine or vehicle it proposes to manufacture prior to
production. The application includes design requirements for all emission related parts, engine
calibrations, and other design parameters for each different type of engine (in heavy-duty vehicles), or
engine chassis combination (in light-duty vehicles). EPA then "certifies" each acceptable design for use,
in vehicles of the upcoming model year.

For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty eng~ne into a different light-duty vehicle by any
person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all
emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of
the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that
emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technical
information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehicle
manufacturer.

For heavy-duty vehicles, the resulting vehicle must contain a heavy-duty engine which is identical to a
certified configuration of a heavy-duty engine of the same model year or newer as the year of the
installed engine. Under no circumstances, however, may a heavy-duty engine ever be installed in a
light-duty vehicle.

The most common engine replacement involves replacing a gasoline engine in a light-duty vehicle with
another gasoline engine. Another type of engine switching which commonly occurs, however, involves
diesel powered vehicles where the diesel engine is removed and replaced with a gasoline engine.
Applying the above policy, such a replacement is legal only if the resulting engine-chassis configuration
is equivalent to a certified configuration of the same model year or newer as the chassis. If the vehicle
chassis in question has been certified with gasoline, as well as diesel engines(as is common), such a
conversion could be done legally.

Another situation recently brought to EPA's attention involves the offering for sale of used foreign-built
engines. These engines are often not covered by a certified configuration for any vehicle sold in this
country. In such a case, there is no way to install such an engine legally. EPA has recently brought
enforcement actions against certain parties who have violated the tampering prohibition by performing
illegal engine switches.

It should be noted that while EPA's policy allows engine switches as long as the resulting vehicle
matches exactly to any certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the chassis, there are
some substantial practical limitations to performing such a replacement. Vehicle chassis and engine
designs of one vehicle manufacturer are very distinct from those of another, such that it is generally not
possible to put an engine into a chassis of a different manufacturer and have it match up to a certified
configuration. Therefore, practical considerations will generally limit engine switches to installation of
another engine which was certified to be used in that same make and model (or a "twin" of that make
and model, e.g., Pontiac Grand Am and Oldsmobile Calais). In addition, converting a vehicle into a
different certified configuration is likely to be very difficult, and the cost may prove prohibitive.

B. State Laws

Many states also have statutes or regulations prohibiting tampering in general. Most of these laws
specifically prohibit tampering by individuals. A few specifically prohibit engine switching, using
provisions similar to those stated in EPA's policy. To determine the state law in any given state, the
state's Attorney General's office should be contacted. In addition, many states have state or local
antitampering inspection programs which require a periodic inspection of vehicles in that area, to
determine the integrity of emission control systems. Many programs have established policies for
vehicles which have been engine switched. While EPA does not require these programs to fail engine
switched vehicles which are not in compliance with federal policy, the Agency does strongly
recommend that these programs set their requirements so as to be consistent with the federal law. State
or local programs which pass illegally engine switched vehicles may mislead federally regulated parties
into believing that engine switching is allowed by federal law.

In other words, if you can find an 87 or older 300TE then the swap is possible since the 87 300TD was a certified configuration. Since there was no 88+ 300TD it may not be (legally) possible.

It really depends on how strict Michigan is on their registration, emissions tests and safety inspections. In some place like Oklahoma, where there are no emissions tests or inspections, your swap would be cake to do. On the other end of the spectrum, like California, its possible for them to seize the vehicle if it has illegal modifications.

Its up to you. I'd love to see a 300TD come alive from an old 300TE.

sixto · #10 06-03-2008, 03:45 AM

You can try a 90-93 250TD or 300TD 2.5 or a 95 E300 wagon with a 606.

You can try a 90 300TD with an older 603.96 with the boost and emissions controls from a 603.970 (90-91 350SD/L).

Sixto
87 300D