Interesting video from CNBC about yesterday's announcement of Toyota's first operating loss since 1950 and how they don't make any money on the Prius.

CNBC's Erin Burnett gives a little love for "Clean Diesels" and no love for Hybrids.


Are Hybrids Dead?






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__________________
1983 123.133 California
- GreaseCar Veg System

If it weren't for the exemption for hybrids (no passengers necessary) on the high occupancy lanes here in Northern Virginia, they would be rare indeed. Most folks bought them to ride solo on HOV - causing further congestion.

In July, 2006, Virginia began issuing a special plate to new hybrids. Hybrids with the new plate must have 3 occupants. Hybrids registered prior to July, 2006 were grandfathered.

I ride the HOV lanes every business day and since July, 2006, I have seen exactly 6 different hybrids with the new tag carrying 3 occupants - IN MORE THAN TWO YEARS! If they're such a good idea, why did the State stop the exemption?

The real fraud in all of this is that hybrids are most efficient when they're going very slowly - like 15 mph when its all electric. At speed, on the HOV, hybrids aren't significantly more efficient than their gas counterparts, i.e., Honda Civic.

Car companies don't make money on hybrids because they make up a tiny fraction of all cars sold. In the previous few years, annual hybrid sales were about the same as one month worth of Toyota's sales.

Additionally, hybrid owners pay a premium to own them compared to a comparable gas model, i.e., Honda Civic Hybrid vs. Honda Civic Gas. Even if gas were $5 gal., it would take tens of thousands of driving miles to pay for the premium.

I predict that low gas prices and the floundering economy will drastically reduce the demand for hybrids - even though they make people feel really good and green.

__________________
2009 E320 Bluetec 117,000
1995 E300D 306,000 Sold
1996 Ford Taurus LX 130,000 Sold
1985 300TD Still 225,000 Sold
2016 Ford Fusion 24,900

Diesel + Hybrid. Why can't anyone figure out they can be combined and that the technology has been around since the 1950's? If it can be done with a 6000hp locomotive, a 100hp car should be a snap.

not dead, just not worth it yet.

$5000 premium for a hybrid. How many miles or years you gotta drive just to break even?

And guess what...you could buy cars that got 50 mpg in the 80's and 90's.....Honda CRX, VW rabbit, Geo Metro to name a few. But were others too. If they kept with these kinda cars they would still be on the showroom floor today...much more refined and such and probably in the 50-100mpg range.

The industry used the advances in engine efficiency to make more HP for the same fuel consumption rather than maintain HP levels and increase MPG.

They can do it right now, a 100mpg car. It's gonna have 50-100 HP max, which is all you need to travel the speed limit with some HP to spare. Instead they offer us 300hp grocery getters....I guess you gotta get home before your gallon of ice cream melts.

My old Rabbit and Metro both got 50 mpg at the speed limit, had about 50 hp and still I could push them towards 90 mph if i was in a hurry.

__________________
1987 300TDT
1981 VW MKI Caddy 1.6 diesel, waiting on engine swap
1983 D-50 Power Ram 4x4 "Mitsubishi" 2.3 turbo diesel
assorted gas powered crap and motorcycles

RIP: 1984 300TDT, 1982 300TDT, 1984 190D 2.2, 1992 300D 2.5, 1987 300TDT, 1982 Maxima LD28, 1983 Maxima LD28, Isuzu C223 P'ups X3, 1983 Holiday Rambler 6.2 Banks turbo diesel, 1984 Winnebago LeSharo 2.1 TD, 1985 Allegro 6.5

I'm sure the low fuel prices will only last so long. Then, everybody will be scrambling to get whatever fuel efficient cars are out there being hyped. I'm just enjoying the low prices for the time being.

__________________
" We have nothing to fear but the main stream media itself . . . ."- Adapted from Franklin D Roosevelt for the 21st century

OBK #55

1998 Lincoln Continental - Sold
Max 1984 300TD 285,000 miles - Sold
The Dee8gonator 1987 560SEC 196,000 miles - Sold
Orgasmatron - 2006 CLS500 90,000 miles
2002 C320 Wagon 122,000 miles
2016 AMG GTS 12,000 miles

I remember raising that question a while ago. Apparently diesel locomotives have a different form of operation whereby the engines run at a constant speed to generate electricity that, then powers the wheels. I wonder why hybrid cars are not built this way?

__________________
" We have nothing to fear but the main stream media itself . . . ."- Adapted from Franklin D Roosevelt for the 21st century

OBK #55

1998 Lincoln Continental - Sold
Max 1984 300TD 285,000 miles - Sold
The Dee8gonator 1987 560SEC 196,000 miles - Sold
Orgasmatron - 2006 CLS500 90,000 miles
2002 C320 Wagon 122,000 miles
2016 AMG GTS 12,000 miles

The diesel electric has electric traction motors on each axle.

One could use a small diesel engine to power a small gen set that could power electric motors on a car.

__________________
RRGrassi


70's Southern Pacific #5608 Fairmont A-4 MOW car

13 VW JSW 2.0 TDI 193K, Tuned with DPF and EGR Delete.

91 W124 300D Turbo replaced, Pressure W/G actuator installed. 210K

90 Dodge D250 5.9 Cummins/5 speed. 400K

rrgrassi, there have been so many times where I wanted to use your example. Grab a small diesel generator to power the car's electric engine(s) and charge batteries.

I would love to work on that car. Problem with the generator? I could take it out and inside my house to work on. Getting old? Throw the generator away and buy a new one. The electric engines would only need brushes changed once in a while, and of course batteries would need maintained / replaced.

If I had equipment to mount an electric engine to a gas/diesel transmission, I would be doing this already. My manual 240d with a bad engine would be a lot of fun to convert to electric, and would be able to handle the heavy weight of car batteries (especially with the engine removed) - not sure how economic it would be tho with the heavy weight of these cars.

From the CSX website.

__________________
1983 123.133 California
- GreaseCar Veg System

Would that lessen the need for a large array of batteries?

__________________
" We have nothing to fear but the main stream media itself . . . ."- Adapted from Franklin D Roosevelt for the 21st century

OBK #55

1998 Lincoln Continental - Sold
Max 1984 300TD 285,000 miles - Sold
The Dee8gonator 1987 560SEC 196,000 miles - Sold
Orgasmatron - 2006 CLS500 90,000 miles
2002 C320 Wagon 122,000 miles
2016 AMG GTS 12,000 miles

They've been running ads with that exact coment on them a lot lately. That's amazing

__________________
" We have nothing to fear but the main stream media itself . . . ."- Adapted from Franklin D Roosevelt for the 21st century

OBK #55

1998 Lincoln Continental - Sold
Max 1984 300TD 285,000 miles - Sold
The Dee8gonator 1987 560SEC 196,000 miles - Sold
Orgasmatron - 2006 CLS500 90,000 miles
2002 C320 Wagon 122,000 miles
2016 AMG GTS 12,000 miles

If there was a way to mount an electric motor down the drive train connect it to the diff, you could then use a pancake (Subaru type) diesel engine to run a genset capable of powering the wheels and all the other electical consumers. Use the engine bay to house the engine, genset, and other things. The power feed for the motor to drive the wheels can be run down the driveshaft tunnel. There would be no need for batteries.

The A/C could be powered either by the engine or use a fridge type compressor/evap fan system.

The locomotives are driven by DC or AC traction motors, based on the type, like the SD70-MAC (EMD) , and have batteries to start the engines. There is a battery type made by Green Goat.

You could go with brushless motors as well.

We have the technology to do it. I do not have the money though.

__________________
RRGrassi


70's Southern Pacific #5608 Fairmont A-4 MOW car

13 VW JSW 2.0 TDI 193K, Tuned with DPF and EGR Delete.

91 W124 300D Turbo replaced, Pressure W/G actuator installed. 210K

90 Dodge D250 5.9 Cummins/5 speed. 400K

I love diesels, but seriously the antihybrid attitudes defy logic. Hybrids easily exceed 45mpg at highway speeds (>70mph). No other car is going to do that except a jetta diesel. Yes, earlier cars like crx's and geo metros could do this but they were tin can cars. Small cars just don't get the mileage they should because the safety requirements make them too damn heavy. A necessary tradeoff because your life is certainly worth more than a few more MPG in my opinion. The safety features and interior dimensions of the prius and civic dwarf those other models. The prius is just as big on the inside as a camry and in fact has more leg room in the back than a camry. Ford's new midsized hybrid (fusion) is going to get over 40mpg on the highway.

Ultimately it's just an individual choice. If VW made more dependable cars and had a dealer network more accessible here in flyover land, I'd have bought one in a heartbeat. We don't have those HOV lanes, but you'll see a prius or hybrid civic everywhere. Most are driven by middle age or elderly folks, not some stereotypical "green" person. Sorry about the rant.

__________________
Kevin

1978 300D
1979 240D

Just wait for the VW golf if it comes into production. http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02/28/geneva-08-preview-volkswagen-golf-tdi-hybrid-concept/

I had the pleasure of driving a rented Prius from LA to Michigan a couple months ago, and I was *surprised* how well the car handled. We easily got 40-45 MPG (lower in the mountains, higher on the Plains) - and the car was actually pretty good to drive.

I wouldn't part with my 300SD for it of course, but if I had to get a new car now it would be on the short list. I usually hate Toyotas (they feel like a tin can with no style to me) but the Prius really changed my thinking...