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New a/c compressor
I just bought all new a/c parts for my car, New compressor, receiver/dryer, expansion valve and all new seals, My question is how much oil do I add to the compressor and other components? I was told to use PAG oil.
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If you're using R134a, then PAG is OK. If R-12, use mineral oil. I'm assuming you're doing a full flush. My W123 used 170ml of mineral oil, basically 1/3 in the condenser, 1/3 in the drier, and 1/3 in the narrow line to the evap, and enough in the compressor to be sure the moving parts were wet (but most came dribbling out when the compressor was mounted). |
Opps, Don't know why I forgot what car lol it's a 1984 300D sedan
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That's more like it.
2.6 lbs R-12 (adjust accordingly for R-134a) 170ml mineral oil - not sure if adjustment is needed for PAG. |
I am going to be using 134a, Do I just divide that amount of oil between the compressor and the other components? Sorry for all the questions, I just don't want to mess anything up.
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There is no problem using R134a.
1) Fill the compressor with 8oz of Ether oil. Pag oil is OK but it is better with Ether as the system was using R12 before and has mineral oil. Ether Oil mixes better with the old oil unless you can purge the mineral oil completely. 2) Put 2 oz of oil in the rec/drier. It is not necessary but some people recommend it. 3) Pull vacuum down to 20-25 hg or better and make sure it holds for a few hours, or overnight. 4) Charge with R134a. |
Cool, Thank you very much. A friend of mine is going to vaccum the system and charge it for me.
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I think you mean Ester oil, short for Polyolester, often abbreviated POE.
PAG is a much better lubricant, but it will not tolerate chlorine. Water either, but you can now buy double-end-capped PAG, known as DEC-PAG, which is much more water-tolerant. The stuff at our local parts store says "Super Moisture Tolerant Formula" or some such, and it is DEC oil. For PAG, you use 46cSt viscosity. As for the chlorine, it appears that you will be using your old flexible hoses. You won't get all of the refrigerant out of them, so there will be chlorine. If this is the case, I would go with POE oil, in 100cSt viscosity (I would use 100. What you use is up to you). Note that POE oil is also not water tolerant. I would recommend fluorescent dye in the oil. You can buy it that way off the shelf. |
I should add that I agree with TangoFox. Spend the $15 and an hour or two and get your 609 certificate online after taking an open-book test. Then you can buy R12 legally. It is more expensive than 134a, but it's really not that bad.
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And one more reason to use R-12: you will actually be able to tell when your a/c is on!!! |
The person that had the car before had it converted to 134a, I used the pag oil and plan to have the vaccum done tomorrow night. Ive had 134a in all my cars and its cold enough for me :) Ill just be happy that it will be blowing cold air :) I flushed the hell out of the lines and condensor but I forgot to put the new expansion valve on lol.... where is it?
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I have no problem with R134a per se.... but to use it in a Delco Hotchkiss compressor and have a chance for years of problem free service you must be sure you have one of those type compressors which was BUILT FOR R134a use. This means being sure you have certain serial or model numbers on your compressor. Ask Tray Carlisle at Carlisle Auto Air in San Antonio, Tx for the specifics... although I may have posted it in the archives... There is a huge amount of evidence in the archives not only from this forum but Aircondition.com and ackits.com concerning the long term lack of reliability using the Delco made for R12 and just substituting R134a. Millions of the Delco hockey pucks are working just fine with R134a...but if you got an exact replacement for your Delco when you purchased the new compressor then you are likely to have problems about a year out if you substitute R134a for the R12 it was originally made to work with. |
The compressor does have 134a stamped on it in a few places, Does that make a difference?
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I am not promoting R134a, I am just stating the facts. Find me a new car using R12.
Statistically any component has a chance of failure. The engine may quit, the tranny may not shift tomorrow. If you buy a compressor, new or used, it stands the same chance of failure using R134a or R12. The issue is not the cooling agent, it is the oil in the compressor. If you put the proper oil, ( BTW, I recommend using Ester oil, not Ether ) then the compressor should be as reliable as any other components. The compressor failure you are referring to likely caused by installers did not purge all the old mineral oil from the compressor with the compressor in situ in the car. In this case, the compressor is out of the car and as long as it is filled with the proper oil, I really do not see any issues. My 300D is running fine for 2 years with R134a since I bought it. I do not know how long the PO had it converted. We can talk about it until the cows come home but as far as I am concerned, I will continue to use R134a. |
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For someone who is overhauling their a/c system, the added cost of using R-12 is small when compared to the overall investment being made. The payoff is an a/c system that will work well as compared to one that will be a marginal performer when the ambient temp exceeds about 85*F. |
http://www.id-usa.com/how_to_faqs_retrofitting.asp
Do yourself a favor and read the FAQ site from a reputable company in A/C if you want to use R134a. If you go to Walmart or most shops, all you see is products from this company, Interdynamics Corp. If anyone or any physicists who disagrees with the FAQ on the physics of the refrigerant, please contact the company and correct them. |
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Find me a car before 1992 that was designed to use r134a. R134a won't work as well as R12 will in an R12 designed system. R134a will no longer be used in Europe in new cars in a few years just as R12 is no longer used in new cars in the US. You have stated that R134a is 'good for the environment' in another thread here http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=252067&page=2 in post #23. R134a is not good for the environment, it harms the environment, just as all manufactured freons do. By stating that you want to tell others "that R134a is comparable to R12 and is good for the environment" it shows that not only are you promoting r134a but your ignorance as well. |
how would I know if my 1YO or so Delco R4 compressor was designed to work with R134a?
just the part # or is there some obvious differences in the look/design. |
F**k the environment, I just want cold a/c :) It's better than my sweaty a** stinking the place up lol
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R-134a in an otherwise unmodified W123 won't perform nearly as well as R-12. There are those of us who have already learned that lesson. And others, apparently, still hankering to pay tuition in the school of hard knocks. |
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Krautwagon...
If your Delco says R134a on it you should be in good shape... You did not put where you live in the upper right section of the post...which sometimes makes a difference in answers we give... I say ' in good shape' of course with the caveats mentioned by several already... if all the rest of your system is in good shape... things like the fins clean and straight...and you do not live in a particularly hot and or humid section of the country the R134a may do you a fine job... One item I would suggest cleaning.....and DWMorrison in the archives has a great thread on it.... is the EVAPORATOR FINS.... this is hardly ever mentioned... but can make or break a system at the edge ...or on R134a.... those fins can greatly restrict air flow at the most important point... even when all the rest of the system is working fine... not easy to get to and clean... but well worth the effort when going with R134a. |
Since we are talking about A/c
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=83976&id=601553061&l=6d368da55e
Here are some pictures of my compressor and dryer and blower. where is the monovalve? Where is the fuse to the compressor that is not in the fuse box? Where is the Aux Water Pump? My symptom is that the compressor is not getting power. And my pushbutton controller is blowing out. (I resoldered it enough to reengage the blower and switch between hot and outside air) When I find out why its blowing my pushbutton, I'll install a new one:) |
Anybody know the thread of the texas guy making the kit to use the newer style compressor on the 617
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There is no need to correct them. I'm sure that they care about the veracity of their FAQ just as much as they care about the quality of the products that they sell, and that can't be any further than the legal dept. Their stuff is all junk. |
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He is wrong on all counts, for example, the vacuum measurment he gives is off. Unless you are using a cheesy air operated vacuum pump that can only muster 20-25 hg. :rolleyes: He might not know that moisture will NOT boil off at 20-25 HG. Mixing of oils in the way he suggests is a sure way to form acid and cause black death to all those expensive parts. Don't listen to this guy. The amount of oil is specific for each car and/or compressor used, not what some guy posts on the internet as the correct amount for everyone to use.:rolleyes: There are lots of problems with using R134a in a R12 system, the gas is the cheapest part of a proper a/c repair and R12 will cool best, hands down. Don't listen to this guy. Geez, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Especially if it is passed on as absolute fact. People, do yourselves a favor, and look this stuff up. Don't listen to this guy. |
Jerry, AMEN !!! Thanks for saying it in such a clear and direct fashion.
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A friend of mine has an 84 SD which had 134 in it when he bought it several years ago. It never cooled that well, and the refrigerant charge amount had to be right on the money. It also put a lot of load on the compressor in hot, humid conditions. So, he installed a rebuilt compressor, flushed the system, and went back to R12. Much better on every account. My '83 had never been converted to 134 and after repairs of a few leaks works perfectly.
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The gas isn't the most expensive part of the system. I bought r12 for $17/LB last summer and $15/LB this summer. If you took AHKAYS advice your compressor would hydrolock, A/C system get the black death. Reading instructions on the harbor freight A/C manifold gauge kit and the walmart r-134a can only makes you an expert on blowing yourself/your car's A/C system up. |
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I was driving one of my luxury 300SDL for the trip. Before the trip, I top up the p/s with 99 cents p/s fluid. Change the oil and filter with 99 cents engine oil. Running on converted R134a A/C along the way. I did 1200 miles on WVO without a hitch and at $0. My engine, p/s and A/C were fine and I returned home in good shape and relaxed. I stayed in Marriot Hotel and ate out every meal with the money I saved. I have done 20K hassle-free WVO miles on this 300SDL since I had it 1 1/2 year ago, with converted A/C running of course. I do not sweat at small things now. You can deride me on using cheap stuffs or not knowing anything about A/C. The fact of the matter is that I have converted at least 4 cars to R134a successfully for less than $50 and they are cold. I used R12 before when I changed out the compressor on a Lexus LS400 and the evap on a Chrysler minivan. I use R134a nowadays as they are readily available. I use Harbor Freight vacuum gauge to do my measurements and it serves me well. I would not spend my hard earned $$ on frivolous stuffs, definitely not on auto stuffs. The profit margin on auto accessories are at least 300% if not more on most accessories. I know for a fact that price does not equate to quality in most consumables. Last by not least, may be I do not understand the members around this forum. They always ask questions like 'My AC is blowing hot air, what can I do?', 'How much oil should be put in the compressor?', 'Can I adjust the pressure switch?' etc. The way I read it is that they want to fix it themself and fix it at minimal costs. If they can afford to take it to the professional then why would anyone post such questions in this forum. I do not know everything but I offered some of my experience and they were my GOOD experience. |
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In some high stress situations... like the inside of the AC system .. SMALL THINGS DO COUNT...why? because some of the orifices are small... like the TXvalve...and if it gets clogged your ac does not work. You do not understand the members of this forum who are interested in protecting newer members to any particular mechanical problems from overly simplified statements which can get them into money or physical trouble by believing what they read from someone claiming ' fast easy cheap' solutions which do not exist for long term viability. I am going to paraphrase Einstein on for the last answer... the ' at minimal costs' part... He said ' everything should be made as simple as possible...but not simpler'... 'Things should be fixed as cheaply as possible but not more so'... meaning you have to know where ' cheap' crosses the line to ' cutting corners' which will in fact COST YOU MORE in the long run than you saved initially. If you understand the trade off... that is ONE thing..but to sing out a solution to those who may not know the tradeoffs... without warning them... gets people who do recognize the difference up in arms... |
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Scott |
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I used to own an independent import autoparts store(anyone remember Lazorlite or Bap/Geon :D), and I can tell you that the profit margin was closer to 40% on average for retail. Wholsale was less due to more favorable pricing and discount for payin accounts in full every month, not to mention the costs of delivery. Anyways.... The guys that drive the Matco/Snap On/Mac tooltruck will also laugh at your comment, if you meant tools instead of parts. Since you spoke of tools and consumable shop supplies in the same post, it's hard to know exactly what you meant. Do whatever you want to your own cars, but please stop dipensing advice here as if you are some kind of guru. Some people might get hurt or spend way more than they should because they took your "green engineer" qualifications to be legitimate. Some of us have forgotten more about the nuances of the auto repair industry than you will ever learn from the internet or interdicknamics. |
Just wanted to let you guys know that my a/c is working amazing!!! Had the system vacuumed down and charged with 134a, the friend that helped me put a thermometer in one of the vents and it was blowing 36 deg F :)) My car is so much more comfortable now :)) I've never had a car with a/c that worked so well.
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Do not forget that you need barrier type hoses for the 134a stuff. I used the 134a before, and will not again. Higher pressures make more resistance in the turning of the compressor, sapping the already low powered engines. Turbo boost for me it shutting off the compressor while accelerating. Keep in mind this is on the OM617.952. Plus, in Texas, the 134a in the MB cooled well with ambient temps below 85 or at night. It was torture during 100 degree days with 134a in a system not designed for 134a.
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The temps here in Florida have been in the high 90's during the day and I have no window tint, This a/c system is kicking ass :)
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My a/c is still working great but I just noticed that the a/c cooling fan is not switching on, I jumped it and the fan itself works. What would cause this?
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Fan Relays,Wiring,AC system Leak ? (Hope it's not a bad switch on the RD)
If you're gonna run R134a in an R12 system you need a Parallel Flow condenser,
it will make up for the 134's lack of heat transfer ability with it's 30% better transfer performance.IT WILL NOT BE A "Drop In" replacement. Spend some time "Plundering Around" on Arizona Mobil Air's website: http://www.ackits.com/ I'm running BG's FrigiQuiet for an AC lubricant with a reconversion back to R12. |
I guess ill bring this thread back form the dead :)
Well I have been running the R134a in my car for sometime now and it has been fine, I am running a reman R4 compressor with a 1 year warranty. Well I have been seeing a few people that have done the same and the compressor fails after a year or so, before mine decides to go my friend will swap my compressor out for a new one if I pay the difference, I got hold of 3 12oz and 1 14oz cans of R12. I am going all the way making sure everything is leak free and ready for this stuff, cost me $100 ;) Do i need special guages and change the 134 fittings before I charge the system? Yes I will have the system vacuumed down again. |
How about the type AND amount of oil in the system on the change over ?
You will also need a new receiver / dryer of course. If you have the proper R4 compressor it may last for years... and since you say the cooling is fine you may get years of good service out of it as is.... just a thought.... |
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