second vacuum pump, help! on a trip-Toronto - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

conrad.g · #16 08-12-2009, 06:56 AM

One more question,
Does anyone know a source for just the piston for a vacuum pump? I have a pile of pumps, just need a piston, or two, or three...

fruitcakesa · #17 08-12-2009, 08:36 AM

Conrad, you are a braver man than me.
We just got back from a round trip visit from VT to Parry Sound Ont.
My wife had wondered about taking the 81 240, but my natural caution stopped that.
We took the Jetta, with 4 adults, gear for a week and 2 bicycles.
It was a bit snug in there and I know the Benz would have been roomier
but getting 33 mpg cruising at 70 mph for hours with a working AC sure beats stuck on the side of the road.

conrad.g · #18 08-12-2009, 04:08 PM

Ah yes,
And that is the main reason for getting the 240D! My 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, while peppy and thrifty with a rocketchip and bilstien HD's, is starting to show signs modern technoligy at it's best. Although the A/C doesn't work, it can be fixed and the monsoon radio can be replaced, the real bugger is that I currently have a doorlatch that isn't comunicating with the computer and therefore not letting it go to sleep and draining the battery in a couple of days! How idiotic can mankind be? So, just replace the door latch? Well, it is $400 and there are four more waiting! And, as with any electronicly dependant, computer reliant, sensor needing vehicle, even with the vagcom, one can eat up alot of time figuring out if there really is the problem that is discribed or if it is a sensor or a wire or a computer problem! And then, when it is off and away at a shop somewhere, like in Parry Sound or on the other side of the bay in Tobermory, or even at a VW specialist, $95/hr adds up quick tracing down what the real problems are! I have owned too many vehicles with computers and vow never again! With a diesel it should be fuel, air, timing or compression or it should run! Even my 96 International 4900 had a computer and although I was able to get 600K out of her and she will keep on going with a quick rebuild being a wet sleved engine, I carried cam sensors and used them like candy, traced wires and replaced computers that just decided to quit for no good reason. At least it lasted. I couldn't make the pickups last a year. My old mechanical Dodge with the 12 valve cummins was a good one, but the 98 and 2000 were no end of trouble! (I was pulling cross country at 100K+/year). Anyway, rather impressed with the 240 simplicity, bulletproof bosch inline and amazing engineering and when a clean speciman from Ga with "7500 miles on a rebuilt engine" showed up in my back yard with a spare engine/manual trans to boot, I jumped. I think it will be alright once I get the bugs worked out although I don't have much faith in the guy who rebuilt it! Thinking of throwing the spare engine in and seeing if it does any better. But that is a crapshoot also. I like the car and the Jetta gets me into trouble. When fifth gear went, I replaced it with the european .681 and she really likes triple didgets now. Even at 95 for extended trips with the scanner, cb and radar going and the old truckdriver intense attention to not getting caught, I get 40-45 mpg. But I like rear wheel drive, the ride and the simplicity of the benz. I am used to taking a bit to get her up to speed having pulled trailer for over a million miles and I can almost get back into having to manage power well to pass and truth be told, if you "drive it like you stole it" it the 240 is a rather capable vehicle. I don't think it will do much more than the speedo says but that's just fine. She hums alonf great at 75-80. Might be a bit tiresome in Montana, but it's not like I'm doing that monthly (anymore!). Now, if I could just find a good 18 speed to bolt up, then all 2.4 liters would be more than ample. Oh, and this little vacuum problem also. And, while I'm at it, A/C would be nice. We are having our first week of summer here! But first things first, anyone know about injection timing devices and intermediat shaft bearings in relation to vacuum pumps pulling the rod off the piston?
Oh, and I'm so sorry you had to have more than two in the jetta for a trip! While the power isn't a problem anymore with a mild rocketchip upgrade (infact it is almost scary and I couldn't imagine the downpipe/injector/clutch increase), That back seat isn't made for people (with legs anyway)!

compress ignite · #19 08-12-2009, 07:50 PM

Looks like you've got bushings on the: Intermediate system as well as the Timing device. (The good news is,MB still offers the Timing device Bushing)
[on the "Newer" Diesels , the Timing Device Bushing is no longer offered...
you have to buy the whole timing device!]

http://www.detali.ru/cat/oem_mb2.asp?TP=1&F=123103&M=616.912&GA=722.117404&GM=716.005210++++214++++717.400&CT=M&cat=004&SID=05&SGR=015&SGN=01

AND

http://www.detali.ru/cat/oem_mb2.asp?TP=1&F=123123&M=616.912&GA=722.117404&GM=716.005210%2C214+++++++717.400&CT=M&cat=004&SID=07&SGR=060&SGN=02

conrad.g · #20 08-12-2009, 08:22 PM

Thanks for the link. What is it anyway?
Have the service manual disc but it isn't as clear.
32/82 must put you somewhere near Ga? Home base for this girl.
You don't happen to have torque specs for those two screws in the divice drawing???

compress ignite · #21 08-12-2009, 08:44 PM

It's the Mercedes Benz Club of Russia's Illustrated Parts catalog
(Much nicer format and Pictorials than the MB EPC)
[Usually They update quicker than the MB North America EPC ,since MB's (NA)is administered by "Snap On"]

Here's the complete list of MB Chassis(s) and parts:
http://www.detali.ru/cat/oem_mb0.asp?TP=1

[Yeah,5 miles inland from open Atlantic]

conrad.g · #22 08-12-2009, 09:16 PM

Have any connections for a mooring?
I'm just about fed up with anything that is dependant on an engine!

No, seriously, my 49 piper s a peach. Simple, reliable. But also seriously, I'm just about ready for that sailboat that I've always wanted. When I sell the land house I think it is time to start the move to the water. Will be a few years before I can live on it full time with the changing views of the world and I think having it down there for the winters anyway would be the place until I can set sail permanently. A quick fly down (well it only does 95 mph but straight line and no trafic lights cuts even interstate time to almost a third) and the Bahamas are waiting! Florida is pretty rediculously priced.
Thanks for the link.

Diesel911 · #23 08-12-2009, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conrad.g

Thanks for the link. What is it anyway?
Have the service manual disc but it isn't as clear.
32/82 must put you somewhere near Ga? Home base for this girl.
You don't happen to have torque specs for those two screws in the divice drawing???

I have looked in my FSM CD set and also in the 617.95 Engine Book and cannot find any spec on the clearance or wear limit of the timer Bushing/s.
If anyone finds it please let me know!

Diesel911 · #24 08-12-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conrad.g

Here's an update.
Peach parts doesn't ship to Canada so I was stuck with the local shops $500+ radiator as time was short (rental for a week). Could have had the one in my garage sent up but would have to sleep under the car until it got there and I don't have much faith in the parts that came with the car..Anyway, new rad, used fan, saved the pully (and it wasn't the balancer, the six bolts on the pully were broken off). And I made it home, about 12 hrs at 75-80 without brakes and a transmission that needed redline and shifted like a 30-06! I suspect that the guy who built the engine wasn't good with a tourqe wrench as the first time I pulled the vacuum pump the bolt down the center of the injection timer was just sitting there, no threads engaged, and I think the pully bolts were probably loose and it got working and snapped them off hitting the fan and puncturing the rad. Boy she drives nice when there is vacuum and aside from that A/C and cruise are all that is left... but, the vacuum.. Pump piston broken again when I took it off last night. Looking in the cd I suspect two things as I try and figure out how it all goes together. One, the thrust washer is missing, but I would suspect there to be play in the injection timer and can't find any. Or two, the two bolts that hold the cam on and the injection timer to the gear aren't tight and holding it in all the way causing too much tavel, stressing the piston and breaking it. I can't find a torque for it and when I stick a straight edge against the block and measure in to the surface of the injection timer it seems the same as my son's spare parts 300td (same setup). Also, it appears that the break in the metal of the piston is a pull, not a push. So I am puzzled. By the way, the break is like someone just punched the rod through the piston leaving a bit of metal the size of the nut attatched and moving but the rest of the piston sits there. Again the metal attatched to the rod by the nut looks like it was pulled out of the piston metal although it may just break that way after being stressed. Three pumps to look at and they all broke the same way. Nothing can make it into the engine as the spring holds the "head" on the bore. and all the breaks have been clean.
Has anyone ever seen such a situation?
Does anyone know the specs for the two bolts holding the cam on? Should they be tightenned right down?
Thanks,
Conrad

In order to see if there is play in the IP Timer you would need to relive the tension on the Chain.

The Piston damage could have been caused by a side thrust on the rod that attaches to the piston.
I would send Pierburg (spelling?) a picture and your story and see what they say. There is a good chance that they might know what would cause that in a new Vacuum Pump. You are most likely not the only one that this is happen to.

conrad.g · #25 08-12-2009, 10:00 PM

I found an endplay spec of .05-.12mm for the timing unit. I can grab both the parts wagon out back and mine and they move more than that for sure. What worries me is that when pushed in all the way and a measurement taken with the tail of the old vernier calipers from the block and compared to mine, the 240 is about a 32cnd of an inch further in. Possibly meaning that the can isn't in contact with the roller and the spring is hammering the piston to the back of the case and therefore stressing it and causing the rod to pull through. But there also appears to be space between the cam disc and the timing unit behind the two bolts on the 240 and not the parts wagon. I don't think it is suposed to be there. I think tightening them up is in order but I also think it would only make the problem worse. Just would love it to be something simple and would also love to hear from someone in the know...any mercedes mechanics out there?

conrad.g · #26 08-12-2009, 10:09 PM

Good point about the tension. I supose it will be time to tear it down soon as I don't see much else to do. My big concern is the bearing that they refer to on the cd that requires liquid nitrogen to get in... I guess it is time to get dirty. I just hate that little bracket on the back of the IP!

Diesel911 · #27 08-13-2009, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conrad.g

I found an endplay spec of .05-.12mm for the timing unit. I can grab both the parts wagon out back and mine and they move more than that for sure. What worries me is that when pushed in all the way and a measurement taken with the tail of the old vernier calipers from the block and compared to mine, the 240 is about a 32cnd of an inch further in. Possibly meaning that the can isn't in contact with the roller and the spring is hammering the piston to the back of the case and therefore stressing it and causing the rod to pull through. But there also appears to be space between the cam disc and the timing unit behind the two bolts on the 240 and not the parts wagon. I don't think it is suposed to be there. I think tightening them up is in order but I also think it would only make the problem worse. Just would love it to be something simple and would also love to hear from someone in the know...any mercedes mechanics out there?

That is an interesting thought.

Some other thoughts:
Back about 6 months ago one of the members said that if you have a Vacuum Leak that the pump will be working more. The reason is that when there is Vacuum the piston will stay pushed in, spring compressed and arm with roller not riding on the Timer, until the Vacuum is relieved.
In a way this sort of goes along with your piston rod going to far theory. If there is some residual Vacuum in the Pump the piston is not going to suddenly return.
Perhaps there is some small Vacuum leak that is making the Vacuum Pump work at full load all of the time; combined with a loose timer.

What I ment concerning the Timer Bushing is that there should be a measurement for the Shaft and there should be a measurment for the Inside Diameter of the Bushing when they are new. There should also be a wear limit on them. This would be side play/readial play.
I recorded the end play in my notes, but I do not recall seeing other specs when I looked thorugh the FSM.

conrad.g · #28 08-13-2009, 08:08 AM

Interesting about the vacuum leak theory. When I first got it I mityvaced everything under the hood and the trans was a slow downward trend as were the doorlocks. I only had 8 at idle from the pump and it increased only to a max of 15 with rpm's. With that the auto didn't shift right and I could get it to drop down manually only with reving it. Then when it went alltogether and I put the next pump on and 22 at idle! Trans shifted perfectly and smoothly. I guess it wasn't the Ammco sticker on the back after all! But if a slow leake causes vacuum pistons to break wouldn't everyone have the problem?

I am able to lock and umloak the doors more than 7 times so long as I do it just after shutdown. Won't hold for a couple of hours. I will go check for any new and major leaks again.
The guy who I bought the car from is sending me the paperwork for the "engine" rebuild. He bought it on ebay from someone in Ga who rebuilt it. It probably won't be that informative but might tell me if any of the bearings were replaced. The engine suposedly has around 9000 miles since. 270K+ total miles. Any suggestions as to what to replace when I'm in there? Shaft bearings of course and I supose the timing chain should be considderred if there is excesive side play in the intermediate shaft even if it was done 9000 miles ago? Has anyone had the pleasure of doing this job? Any helpful tips and things to watch for?

conrad.g · #29 08-13-2009, 08:28 AM

Thinking about both the side load theory and the spring pulling the piston back because the roller isn't engaged and I am running into some problems with each. First, it would seem that side play in the shaft, unless really severe, wouldn't load the piston rod because it is being driven for and aft by the cam/roller mechanism and should move independant of any load on the shaft unless the twist of the shaft created a low point and corresponding high point that resulted in over/under travel of the cam. Which brings me to my other thought about it bottoming out against the case and pulling the rod through. It seems as though there would be some evidence on the piston edge which there doesn't seem to be. But then again, perhaps the o ring is thick enough to act as a cusion and prevent any evidence on the lip of the piston. I will have to check the distances.

compress ignite · #30 08-13-2009, 02:34 PM

'Very Few in use in the waterways/anchorage areas...
(You'd just pick your spot in an Anchorage and throw out the "Hook".)
'Most people rent slips at Marinas...$10 to $20 per foot per month.

If there's any Axial Play (Or Radial for that matter) in the Timing Device...
I'd sure replace that Bushing.