VW Group is moving towards timing chains with their larger diesel engines. What you'll see is not at all like what you have with the older Benz chains. The systems are infinitely more complicated and require a huge amount of work to service. This is going to be the nature of the beast.

Personally, I'm a big fan of timing chains as long as they are reliable and easy to service. A lot of the VW guys prefer belts because they remember the chains on the VR6 engine that require a significant amount of labor around 120,000 miles. A lot of them are also very nervous about the future of the VW diesel engines (with 2, 3, or more timing chains on the back of the engine).

What it boils down to is that you can't beat the simplicity of the 70s and 80s Benz diesels. The same goes for the 80s and early 90s VW diesels. They run forever and can be repaired by most competent individuals. The future is looking bleak in that respect... both VW and MB engines require special tools, special computers, and specialized knowledge to diagnose and repair them.

Ok. There's no need to bring the Nazis into this... that's been over for a long, long time. And I guess we have different tastes in engineering. Fine! :) Tell ya what, you can keep your chain driven Benz, I'll keep mine, and keep my TDI as well (Which BTW has an automatic tensioner as well, all TDIs do and all VW diesels have since 1995 or so). I think this arrangement will lead to both of us remaining happy :D

-J

For the record, I changed the timing chain on my SDL at 280,000 miles because it had 10+ degrees of stretch. It ran much better after that. Parts and labor was about the equivalent of a timing belt change on a mid-2000 VW TDI.

For buying a *used* car (as I'm guessing most of us mechanically inclined folks tend to do), the timing belt gives me the peace of mind knowing that I can slap a new one on, with all new pulleys, tensioners, rollers, etc. for about $250 in parts, and be confident that I'm good to go for another 100k miles.

With a chain, I'm hoping and praying that the previous owner wasn't lazy about his oil changes, leaving me with a motor that's on the verge of self-destruction...

But I've got no skin in this game, since I'm an owner and fan of both products. :D They've both got their advantages and drawbacks.

What's funny for me, is reading all the emotions in this thread. All brand-focused internet forums are naturally biased towards that particular brand, and skeptical of others. Just the nature of the thing I guess.

Sounds as if it will make you VERY happy since you enjoy replacing timing belts so much.

Best of luck with them.

BTW, I never brought the Nazi's into it. I merely called the VolksWagen exactly what it is. Is it not true that Hitler took credit for the design of the original VolksWagen? Facts are facts. He took over the auto industry, health care, the banks.....Sound familiar? You say it's over, but maybe it's not over at all. History repeats itself.

LMAO! You can't be serious.

The german government funded the development of an inexpensive car. Ferdinand Porsche designed the Beetle, since he was the head engineer at VW at the time. You'll never see a single photo of Dr. Porsche, or any VW employee for that matter wearing a swastika - because they never did.

Best not to buy a Honda or Toyota either, you never know when they're going to bomb Pearl Harbor again. :rolleyes:

While we're on the subject though, there are *plenty* of photos of Hitler riding around in a Mercedes Benz...

thank you someone who actually knows what their talking about

You guys did not read my post very carefully. I said that Hitler "took credit for" the design of the Beetle. It's a fact.

You also will not find anything that I wrote that indicates that this has anything to do with my not wanting a modern VW. You guys are reading too much into what I am writing. You didn't even focus on the important part about history repeating itself. This is much more important than the car you wish to drive. Takeover of the auto industry? Takeover of the banks? Takeover of health care? It's not the Germans or the Japanese that I'm worried about.

I read the book Small Wonder while at an Army Kaserne in Ludwigsburgh, Germany in the spring of 1969. I was reading about the buildings that Hitler let Dr. Porsche use for the development activity. I realized that those buildings were right across the street from where I was sitting. They were at that time a US Army Motor Pool. Yes, I'm quite aware of Hitlers involvement, it had nothing to do with design as he claimed, but everything to do with funding.

You guys need to lighten up.

The 70's and 80's MB diesels are simple. I'll give you that. They're also uncomfortable, inefficient, smoky and tend to leak or burn oil. And no, they don't run forever. In fact in my experience they start to burn oil sooner than the newer diesels because they're not built to the same precision, and I've seen plenty of old MB diesels for sale with rebuilt engines.

Car technology is constantly changing especially with the engineering of engines and transmissions with the intention to make it better as time goes on. But in terms of build the newer cars arent built as well as the older ones and wont last long as the old mercedes. Most of the cars of today are built and designed with cheap materials designed to last the average length of time that most people hold onto cars. The new mbs of today we wont remembering down the road. Todays car is like any appliance that once it breaks it gets thrown out and can be recyled easily.

But really its unfair to compare the mb's of the 70's and 80's to today mercedes since the mindset of designers and engineers is different and also their target customers are different. So really its apples n oranges. A much better comparison would a vw from the 70 and 80's say a rabbit agianst a 240D or 300D.

There are plenty of newer cars with over 200K miles holding up very well. I'd say most of today's cars will outlast their predecessors. There are some exceptions, for example the W123 cars had better rust protection than the early W210's, but generally today 200K miles is not exceptional whereas in the 70's it was, otherwise why did odometers only have 5 digits back then? I know that my OM606 with 136K miles isn't burning a drop of oil whereas my OM616 with a little more miles was burning a noticeable amount. From this forum it seems all the oil burning/blowby threads are concerning the OM616/7 engines whereas the newer ones don't appear to have such problems even if they have more miles on them.

The technology behind the drivetrains is evolving and getting better but everything else about the production of todays cars is much cheaper using plastic to make parts that were metal, using glue to hold a car together instead of welding(bmw).
Gluing a frame together, making fenders out of plastic are all methods to reduce the life of a car since most customers today dont care about longevity, they care mostly about a solid drivetrain to get them to point A to point B. I realize that gluing frames togethers and making parts such as fenders out of plastic are to be seen as technoloigical advances since the plastics and glues they are making are supposed to be better than using metal and welding. But at the end of the day the cars of today are tin cans compared to the older cars in terms of build qauilty.

You're right about them not running forever... that was a blatant exaggeration. Speaking of which, my SDL is dead with a cracked cylinder head. However it does not burn any oil... none of my diesels have burned oil (lucky?).

For the record, Hitler preferred Mercedes-Benz. Volkswagens were for the little people.

I had a Rabbit diesel for 5 years, concurent with my 1980 and 1983 300SDs. Both were enjoyable in their own ways. The Rabbit was cheaper to maintain. My best friend and I adjusted the valves on the Rabbit and changed the timing belt ourselves. It wasn't that difficult. My Mercedes seemed to cost me $1000 just for crossing the threshold of my Mercedes dealer. Because of the high cost of repairs, I was afraid to try and fix my Mercedes by myself, lest I break something. Once my extended warranty expired, and I quit taking it to the MB dealer for service, it became much cheaper to maintain.

With just the driver aboard the first generation Rabbit Diesels weren't that slow if maintained properly. The early 49hp engine liked to rev, while the 81 and later 52hp version ran out of breath earlier, but made more low end torque. Anyways, my Rabbit was quicker to 20 mph than my Mercedes but reached 60 about 2 seconds behind. The coefficient of drag on a Rabbit is exactly the same as the MB W123. Curb weight is about 1000lbs lower though, so they did get blown around a bit more.

My Rabbit was still running at 340k miles when my sister got rear ended in it. Up until my current 240d, I never kept a Mercedes for more than 130k miles. Sometimes I wish I'd kept my 83. I sometimes wonder if it's still on the road somewhere in the Pacific NW. It still looked and ran like new when I sold it. My Rabbit didn't look bad. The Leatherette upholstery only showed slight wear on the drivers seat. All and all they are both great cars, and I have equally positive nostalgic feelings for both of them.

For the money invested, the Rabbit was the hands down winner.

My OM603 didn't burn any oil either. It's the OM616/7's that are notorious for burning oil and having blowby as they get old.