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-   -   Persistent (years) battery drain problem: 1983 300CD-T (Calif.) (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=260151)

dogguy 10-26-2009 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2324306)
If you measure the current draw from the battery terminal to the battery cable with all electrical off. You will find some current flow if there is a problem. I wouild pull the fuse for the electric clock or make an allowance for it's continious draw.

If I'm correctly following you...
As I posted here I think two days ago, I measured the amperage draw (between the battery's negative post and the disconnected negative battery cable) with everything off plus doors and trunk closed and I read 10 milliamps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2324306)
You seem to have changed the alternator about the time this problem started.

Actually as I had noted previously in this thread, even with the old alternator, I was having the battery-light-on-at-initial-start-up-at-idle problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2324306)
If you still draw current with all fuses removed the alternator is a suspect in my mind.

Just to confirm that I'm understanding you correctly:
Are you suggesting that I remove all of the fuses from the fuse box and then test to see if there is any amperage draw between the battery's negative post and the disconnected negative battery cable?

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2324306)
If disconnecting the alternator eliminates all draw after doing the fuses you have it.

Are you suggesting that if there is still some current being drawn after doing the above test, to then disconnect the alternator and see if that kicks the draw to zero?

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2324306)
You are also going through far too many batteries as deep cycling them is reducing their life span seriously.

To use a double negative, I don't doubt it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2324306)
I imagine on a quick output check at a parts store that alternator could have passed muster.

Earlier this year, I had the old alternator tested and the guy testing it confirmed that the alternator was ok (I don't recall what he got as voltage output). However, as I noted previously in this thread, even after replacing the voltage regulator, the alternator was kicking out 13.13 volts the last couple of weeks even after reving the engine. Insufficient output.

Thanks for continuing to offer help with this mystery--

barry123400 10-26-2009 04:27 PM

Ten milliamps draw is just the clock probably. Next I would check to make sure the glow relay is really staying off after the cycle. Just make a habit to disable it after starting the car for the next period of time. If that sircuit is intermittently activating it is a known battery drainer. If the problem ceases you know where to look exactly. Also disconnect that glow plug circuit with the car off as well.

I hope you do not have any type of intermittent drain with the car shut down. It would be unlikely but possible. Something is going on though as you say.

The alternator screened clear obviously. Usually a diode will short of course and the problem would have been found fast. It was a long shot but some reverse leakage to a much lesser extent on a diode has been known to occur on rare occasions. This was not your problem. It just seemed coincidental that you changed the alternator out way back. As you said the problem existed with the old alternator as well. I was not sure of that.

Intermittent self triggering glow plug relays are not all that rare either. I suspect you have a heavy unwanted drain when your problem occurs. Since i suspect you have some electrical/electronics experience. If you tapped into the cigarette lighter and monitored your operational voltage by leaving your meter hooked up for awhile. You should notice the voltage drop when the excess load occurs.

I do not suspect you have a static discharge problem when car is not being used. More probable a heavy periodic dynamic drain while underway so heavy that the alternator cannot keep the battery up. If by chance you have a spare glow plug relay I would swap them for a test. At this stage I certainly would not run out and buy a new one. Exception is a used one from a salvage yard for five dollars or so. Everyone should have a spare glow plug relay if cheap enough anyways.

dogguy 10-26-2009 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2324715)
Ten milliamps draw is just the clock probably.

I agree.
Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2324715)
Next I would check to make sure the glow relay is really staying off after the cycle. Just make a habit to disable it after starting the car for the next period of time. If that sircuit is intermittently activating it is a known battery drainer. If the problem ceases you know where to look exactly. Also disconnect that glow plug circuit with the car off as well.

Scenario: I start the car and it is idling and the battery light remains on (I have not yet reved the engine to make the light go off). I disconnect the glow plug time relay and the battery light goes off. Culprit found?
Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2324715)
Intermittent self triggering glow plug relays are not all that rare either. I suspect you have a heavy unwanted drain when your problem occurs.

I can pull a good glow plug time relay from a 1985 300CD-T and swap it into the 1983 to see what happens. Could also put the 1983’s into the 1985 and see what happens.
Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2324715)
If you tapped into the cigarette lighter and monitored your operational voltage by leaving your meter hooked up for awhile. You should notice the voltage drop when the excess load occurs.

1. Connect my DMM leads in place of the lighter’s connections?
2. Monitor the voltage while the engine is on?
Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2324715)
I do not suspect you have a static discharge problem when car is not being used.

I agree.
Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2324715)
More probable a heavy periodic dynamic drain while underway so heavy that the alternator cannot keep the battery up.

I agree.
Thanks for keeping at this--

Craig 10-26-2009 06:19 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dogguy (Post 2324504)
I don't completely understand what you mean when you say, "...at the terminal on the right fender". Could you please clarify?

Thanks--

On top of the right fender there is an electrical connector with three screw contacts, the live contact is suppled directly from the battery, and from the alternator when it is running. If the voltage at this contact is different than the volatage at the battery, it will give us a hint where the problem is.

dogguy 10-27-2009 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig (Post 2324796)
On top of the right fender there is an electrical connector with three screw contacts, the live contact is suppled directly from the battery, and from the alternator when it is running. If the voltage at this contact is different than the volatage at the battery, it will give us a hint where the problem is.

Ah, right. I know just what you mean. Useful schematic too.
I abhor making assumptions about electricity (probably a good trait!)...So, just so that I'm clear about this:
1. With the engine off, measure the voltage across the battery OR measure the voltage at the three-screw pad at the wire supplied directly by the battery (shouldn’t matter which of these two approaches I use, or...?)
2. With the engine running, measure the voltage at the three-screw pad at the wire supplied by the alternator?
Have I got it right?
Incidentally, there appears to be very little parasitic drain taking place. The vehicle hasn’t been driven since Saturday, the battery is connected to both cables, and the voltage has stayed between 13.30 and 13.32 volts.

barry123400 10-27-2009 01:03 PM

I re read the thread. thrteen point two volts after sitting for a few days without running is good and bad. I think a sitting idle battery after a few days should not be this high. I do not know everytthing though. Yet 12.75 volts would seem high normal to me.

I have also re considered your problem. Time to monitor the cigarette lighter voltage. I had assumed everyone had some kind of cord to fit the cigarette lighter socket laying around these days.

By monitoring the voltage while driving something important is going to show up I beleive. The best thing is your car is not impacted with computor related items. So other members will help you get to the bottom of this miserable issue with a little effort by yourself. No fun when a car is considered unreliable and leaves you temporarily stuck from time to time.

Something is telling me you should clean the ground connections from the engine to body and battery to body. Pre emptive if you like. By cleaning I mean get the areas shiny and put some protective grease on the connections before tightning them down again.

Not the problem I think just good items to check on an older car. The mannufacturer never expected these connections to last as many years without cleaning as they have. Or they would have put additional oxidation protection on themselves. Years later some manufactures got the message and did it. In my experience by treating connections I have removed for one reason or another problems never seem to errupt at those points later.

dogguy 10-29-2009 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2325490)
I have also re considered your problem. Time to monitor the cigarette lighter voltage. I had assumed everyone had some kind of cord to fit the cigarette lighter socket laying around these days.




I probably have an old adapter/charger lying around that fits into the cigarette lighter and could leave the connector and make a little pigtail for the DMM to connect to. I’ll do that.



Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2325490)
By monitoring the voltage while driving something important is going to show up I beleive. The best thing is your car is not impacted with computor related items. So other members will help you get to the bottom of this miserable issue with a little effort by yourself. No fun when a car is considered unreliable and leaves you temporarily stuck from time to time.




I completely agree.



Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2325490)
Something is telling me you should clean the ground connections from the engine to body and battery to body. Pre emptive if you like. By cleaning I mean get the areas shiny and put some protective grease on the connections before tightning them down again.


Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400 (Post 2325490)


Not the problem I think just good items to check on an older car. The mannufacturer never expected these connections to last as many years without cleaning as they have. Or they would have put additional oxidation protection on themselves. Years later some manufactures got the message and did it. In my experience by treating connections I have removed for one reason or another problems never seem to errupt at those points later.

This weekend, I’ll go to every ground connection and clean it with brass or steel wool and get it plenty shiny. Then I’ll put some of that (GM?) dielectric grease on the connections. The I’ll report back.



I currently have the front end up for brake work. I’ll have it done Saturday. Then I’ll try the various suggestions (that I haven’t done yet) in this thread and post the results.



Thank you again--


barry123400 03-27-2010 11:10 AM

I have just dropped him a PM asking if he could describe and update what eventually was found and the methology used. Adding it to this resurected thread. Well if Whunter returned the thread from the dead why not?

I noticed back then that I was neglectful in my suggestions. . My sure cure that works everytime. Always put comprehensive on a car with a frustrating problem. Torch it and get even more frustrated getting your insurance money.:D For some terrible reason something in me stops my utilizing it. Call it a major character defect.:mad:

JHZR2 03-27-2010 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio_benz (Post 2282593)
If you want to narrow down the search for the problem you remove one fuse at a time (as someone already suggested) and with one fuse out you take the negative battery cable and touch it to the negative battery terminal. If it sparks that means that something on that fuse is drawing power. You can either do more searching off that fuse or just take it out..

I concur, but I would use a proper multimeter and read the current draw through the ammeter setting on the meter. Record each one. Report back.


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