Need Advice -87 190D turbo 2.5 - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

sasquatchgeoff · #16 10-18-2009, 02:54 PM

The 4K price tag would not be totally unreasonable for a pristine car. There will be expenses and work to be performed in the future as with all MB. However, if the chassis is solid (no rust at all) the coolant system and coolant look oil-free, the engine is not overheating, the compression tests good, and the front end shakes out OK, I would spend that kind of money for a somewhat rare vehicle.

The head gasket issue could be a deal-breaker. Closely examine service records if they exist. The turbo engine head gets a lot more punishment. FSM 01-0400 states:

The cylinder heads for turbo-engines 602.96,
603.96 and 603.97 are reinforced at the water
jacket due to the higher combustion pressures.
On turbo-engines the diameter (d) of the precombustion
chamber bore is 15 mm, on naturally aspirated engines 14 mm.

After careful review, my FSM does not call out specifics on what was done after September '87 production break point except for the NA engine (OM602.911) Only head gasket modifications are mentioned for the turbo engine. I mistakenly referenced the weak head issue from the FSM for the NA engine and erroneously attributed that problem to the turbo head. Sorry about that.

I have pulled the head on my engine and found it to be free of any cracks and in good condition (see my "memory lane" link in my signature) and this is one of the heads that were modified later (09/87). I think the only concern you would have for that turbo engine would be the head gasket, not the head. Thats where the service record may reveal a changed head gasket and in that case you would be golden.

dcotejr · #17 10-18-2009, 03:26 PM

Sasquatchgeoff - don't know how to thank you for your willingness to share from your knowledge and experience with me...

I now feel much better about pursuing the car. From the numerous photos I've seen, it appears very clean, seems to have been meticulously cared for, and has supposedly been garaged for all but the last 10 months of its life...

Don

sasquatchgeoff · #18 10-18-2009, 03:30 PM

You are welcome!!

I have to confess I am a "201 Head" so temper any of my comments with that bias

bigblockchev · #19 10-18-2009, 04:30 PM

Got one, like it. I have to echo what Sasquatch said. they are great little cars. A lot more nimble than the larger Mercs. I have found myself heading for mine when parked next to my other vehicles. I would love to have the turbo,that would make the vehicle ideal in my opinion. The issues of parts has not been much of a problem for me , most of the 190e stuff fits, lots of them around. I truly haven't needed much. The stuff that goes wrong with them is pretty much the same as other mercedes, automatics, power antenna, CCU. One thing I have found on the NA version is valve stem seals, I have heard this from several people on this board. Not a huge issue but seemingly common. Window motors are a bit fussy in older 201s but often can be fixed by disassembling and freeing up stuck bits. Lack of drivers knee room is a bit of an issue for vehicles with non adjustable seat height. The little dash bits surrounding the switches can crack easily on removal or just with time, easy fix at a wrecker. Cheers Dan

300GD · #20 10-18-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sasquatchgeoff

The 4K price tag would not be totally unreasonable for a pristine car. There will be expenses and work to be performed in the future as with all MB. However, if the chassis is solid (no rust at all) the coolant system and coolant look oil-free, the engine is not overheating, the compression tests good, and the front end shakes out OK, I would spend that kind of money for a somewhat rare vehicle.

The head gasket issue could be a deal-breaker. Closely examine service records if they exist. The turbo engine head gets a lot more punishment.

This has been a good discussion. I wasn't sure whether to join in, since it is my car up for sale that is being discussed. But what the heck. I just reviewed the maintenance documentation again, and couldn't find any record of the head gasket being replaced. The maintenance history seems pretty complete, so I'd be inclined to say that it has just never been an issue.

Another vehicle I have, a '97 Toyota Land Cruiser model FZJ80, has a known head gasket issue as well. Much has been made of this issue on a prominent Land Cruiser discussion forum. But on the other hand, I've owned one of these vehicles since 2004 (this is my second one) and after tens of thousands of miles, have never had a problem. Some 1FZ-FE head gaskets have failed -- and mine may yet fail -- but not all do. And I suspect those that never fail, actually outnumber those that do. So I just keep a watchful eye on the coolant and the oil, and try to enjoy the vehicle.

Having said all that, there is certainly nothing wrong with educating yourself on the likely failure points of any vehicle you are considering buying.

P.S. I didn't explicitly state this in the listing, but the asking price is negotiable. Initial asking prices are usually a bit optimistic.

sasquatchgeoff · #21 10-18-2009, 05:18 PM

FWIW, I wish that I lived in AL, because I would certainly take a serious look at the car. Mine ran great for 246K and continued to "run" great even with oil in the coolant. However, I knew that this would cause serious damage over the long term, and the car was worth it to me - so I rebuilt the top end. Once I got in, I could see that the car was lovingly cared for - no sign of overt wear - heck, the factory honing scratches were still evident in the cylinder walls. The timing chain stretch was 2-1/2 degrees off while 4 was considered the replacement threshold. Not bad for a 1/4 million miles. While I was in there I replaced the chain anyway.

Head gaskets on MB are a "routine maintenance" item. That of course considers the fact that many of the cars last a million miles or more. Now that I have done it, I don't consider it a huge deal.

babymog · #22 10-18-2009, 05:24 PM

I don't think it's extremely common, probably less common with well-maintained ones driven nicely than neglected and abused ones.

Pretty much like the '86 and '87 SDL and 300D, it can happen, doesn't mean that it ever will, and some never seem to fail.

dieselchatter · #23 10-18-2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigblockchev

Got one, like it. I have to echo what Sasquatch said. they are great little cars. A lot more nimble than the larger Mercs. I have found myself heading for mine when parked next to my other vehicles. Cheers Dan

Yep! That's what will happen more often than not.

dcotejr · #24 10-19-2009, 06:16 PM

Well, I'm out of pocket for a little over a day, and more has been added to the thread.

Bruce - I'm glad to see you touched base in this discussion. As I have said in our email exchanges, I am very interested in the car. I am a scientist by training, so like to get as much data as reasonably possible before making a decision. From what I've seen in the pictures of you car, it certainly appears to have been meticulously maintained.

My 300SD is great out on the open road, but I'm looking at this vehicle as more for around town / short trips.

But I may just decide it's for the open road also...

You realize you're making it easier by re-iterating price is negotiable...

Thanks for everyone's thoughts. I wish I could have had this kind of insight before I bought my '81 over twelve years ago...

babymog · #25 10-19-2009, 08:50 PM

Of all my diesel cars, the 190Dt (heh) was the most fun.

The only thing I really wanted to change on the car is to put a diesel badge on the back, because it didn't accelerate or smoke like people expect from a diesel. I would like the occasional SUV driver who tried to shut me down from a lane-change, to know he was beaten by a lil oil-burner.

2.5-10 · #26 10-19-2009, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babymog

Of all my diesel cars, the 190Dt (heh) was the most fun.

The only thing I really wanted to change on the car is to put a diesel badge on the back, because it didn't accelerate or smoke like people expect from a diesel. I would like the occasional SUV driver who tried to shut me down from a lane-change, to know he was beaten by a lil oil-burner.

+1 on that - I wish my Dturbo had a diesel badge on it

the thing just hauls.