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  #31  
Old 12-18-2009, 06:16 PM
Craig
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Originally Posted by pawoSD View Post
So you're saying that my lines I put on one of our SD's, which are probably 3x factory spec....aren't going to last as well or better? We also don't have to worry about the steel to aluminum corrosion at the oil cooler connections.

Look at this beast!
I'm saying that if I bought a random car and noticed that it had non-standard oil lines, made by whomever from wherever, I would replace them with OEM lines right away. Aside from everything else, I want the car to be correct.

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  #32  
Old 12-18-2009, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pawoSD View Post
So you're saying that my lines I put on one of our SD's, which are probably 3x factory spec....aren't going to last as well or better? We also don't have to worry about the steel to aluminum corrosion at the oil cooler connections.

Look at this beast!

What is the factory spec that your lines are 3x that of? How have you eliminated the steel to aluminum corrosion issue? A steel oil cooler or aluminum hose ends? Looks like you used the factory steel ends where they connect to the factory aluminum oil cooler, no? What is your analysis of the difference between the unsupported weight difference between your lines and OEM lines and the long term effect on multiple brazed connections verses the fewer OEM connections? What have you done to determine the effect of this significantly greater unsupported weight on the aluminum oil cooler fittings and the likely hood of induced metal fatigue? Have you analyzed the effects of the reduction in flexibility of your hoses verses the modulus of flexibility of the hose used in OEM lines?

So some of the most highly trained and respected engineers in the world looking at many, many millions of real world miles in conditions around the world using their design which appears to have a MTBF of 20+ years is a reality that you seek to compare your cobbled together home brew installation fantasy too? You do have an engineering degree or at least an extensive background in mechanical systems, don’t you?

But hey, what the heck it’s only the internal combustion equivalent of the jugular vein, its not like it really matters!
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  #33  
Old 12-18-2009, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawoSD View Post
So you're saying that my lines I put on one of our SD's, which are probably 3x factory spec....aren't going to last as well or better? We also don't have to worry about the steel to aluminum corrosion at the oil cooler connections.

Look at this beast!
Any car jockey can easily determine that you've got a well made product there. The hose is a wrapped hose, as was the case with OE up until a few years ago. The crimp is extra long..........greater than OE...........and potentially more durable.

The weight of the unit might be slightly greater than OE, however, have no fears about any kind of fatigue failure............those that cite "fatigue" as a failure mode usually have no understanding of it. This hose, and the oil cooler, will never fail in fatigue.........a cyclic phenomena that is not present in this application.

Unlike some folks, you need not bow down to the great engineers that work for M/B...........judgments on what goes into a vehicle are largely dictated to them based upon costs.
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  #34  
Old 12-18-2009, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Billybob View Post
What is the factory spec that your lines are 3x that of? How have you eliminated the steel to aluminum corrosion issue? A steel oil cooler or aluminum hose ends? Looks like you used the factory steel ends where they connect to the factory aluminum oil cooler, no? What is your analysis of the difference between the unsupported weight difference between your lines and OEM lines and the long term effect on multiple brazed connections verses the fewer OEM connections? What have you done to determine the effect of this significantly greater unsupported weight on the aluminum oil cooler fittings and the likely hood of induced metal fatigue? Have you analyzed the effects of the reduction in flexibility of your hoses verses the modulus of flexibility of the hose used in OEM lines?

So some of the most highly trained and respected engineers in the world looking at many, many millions of real world miles in conditions around the world using their design which appears to have a MTBF of 20+ years is a reality that you seek to compare your cobbled together home brew installation fantasy too? You do have an engineering degree or at least an extensive background in mechanical systems, don’t you?

But hey, what the heck it’s only the internal combustion equivalent of the jugular vein, its not like it really matters!
We did not "eliminate" the corrosion issue, but we made it no longer an issue as the hoses can be removed without touching the cooler itself. The new hoses are not much heavier than the old one (weight doesn't really matter here anyways).

In operation the oil cooler lines move very little, these do flex, especially when warm, so that is not really an issue either. Plus, we mounted the metal lines differently, so they can move a bit more freely as well.

This is some heavy duty stuff, it will easily outlast the car, which is just a winter driver....not a perfect show car.



Attached Thumbnails
OE or hydraulic shop oil cooler hoses-100_2587.jpg   OE or hydraulic shop oil cooler hoses-100_2584.jpg  
__________________
-diesel is not just a fuel, its a way of life-
'15 GLK250 Bluetec 118k - mine - (OC-123,800)
'17 Metris(VITO!) - 37k - wifes (OC-41k)
'09 Sprinter 3500 Winnebago View - 62k (OC - 67k)
'13 ML350 Bluetec - 95k - dad's (OC-98k)
'01 SL500 - 103k(km) - dad's (OC-110,000km)
'16 E400 4matic Sedan - 148k - Brothers (OC-155k)

Last edited by whunter; 12-18-2009 at 09:39 PM. Reason: attached pictures
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  #35  
Old 12-18-2009, 09:48 PM
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in gram weight it really adds the the combo - The coupler and the reinforced hose both are a big gain in weight, not to be confused with overall weight but with the hanging weight / having raced for many years Cars / Motorcycles we are very carefull not to over burden any thing with excess weight _ Vibration is a killer and the benz is a shaker for sure -- hope it works for you i went the lighter way for that reason -- jz
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  #36  
Old 12-18-2009, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
"Any car jockey"
Enough said!
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  #37  
Old 12-18-2009, 10:48 PM
Accruing prurient interes
 
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Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
The cost is higher but getting a product locally has the advantage of an actual Person to complain to and a Company that might want to keep you as a customer. Also, it is faster to get a replacement.
Amen.

I'd run a trusted shop's hoses over MB's or OEM replacements. The shop I use for work does same day turnaround and makes hoses that see BIG charge pressures for our snow cats (our large cats have an OM 904 LA and a 924 LA - 960 Ft-lbs of Deutsch fury!). I'd trust my life to their work. And being able to deal with someone locally is huge. Materials fail and freak accidents happen. If it were to happen I'd prefer to resolve it with a face I know.

As for hydro hoses on earth moving and grooming equipment, they're exposed to the elements (including lots of sun), and attached to parts that flex and move...a lot. Hydrulic fluid hoses v oil cooler hoses is not an apples-to-apples comparison.
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  #38  
Old 12-18-2009, 10:53 PM
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I think we are all getting a bit carried away here based on what the hose looks like. If you go to hydraulic shop, they will make the hose for you out of what ever suitable sized hose they have on hand. They will do a very professional job and it will look great. It may handle 3000psi in a hydraulic application. But there is no guarantee that the rubber its made from will be suited for dirty engine oil, contaminated with diesel fuel at over 200F. Try putting engine oil in your SLS and see what it does to the rubber diaphrams in the cells in time.
Years ago I had leaky injector return lines. I couldn't get the hose locally so I tried using some auto vacuum hose, it had good wall thickness and was the right size. I thought it should be ok as it was suitable for petrol. 12 months later, I noticed that the clear return line into the filter looked a bit black. When I removed the rubber return lines, the inner part of the hose was like black chewing gum. They still looked fine on the outside. Many gassers over here can't run on ethanol blended fuels because the ethanol turns some of the components in the fuel system to jelly.

Billybob , dont worry about your jugular vein, there is little pressure in it. Your gorrot artery is the one in your neck that is equivalent.
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1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving
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  #39  
Old 12-18-2009, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
I think we are all getting a bit carried away here based on what the hose looks like. If you go to hydraulic shop, they will make the hose for you out of what ever suitable sized hose they have on hand. They will do a very professional job and it will look great. It may handle 3000psi in a hydraulic application. But there is no guarantee that the rubber its made from will be suited for dirty engine oil, contaminated with diesel fuel at over 200F. Try putting engine oil in your SLS and see what it does to the rubber diaphrams in the cells in time.
If the hose can handle hydraulic oil, it can handle engine oil. The base stock is the same. As far as your concern for "dirty" engine oil, the hose doesn't know clean from dirty........that's a certainty. And, as far as "contaminated with diesel fuel", you've performed a stretch of your imagination for nearly every properly operating M/B diesel.

You used your experience with plain rubber vacuum hose as a conclusion for this application.........a fundamental mistake.
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  #40  
Old 12-19-2009, 12:09 AM
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Brian,
One of my earth moving units is a 600hp turbo elevating scraper that has oil cooler lines like the 300D, somewhat larger though. When I purchased it 10 years ago, it had leaking oil lines. OEM replacements were not available so they were replaced with new hydraulic lines.
less than 1000 hrs later they started leaking. I contacted both Mobil and Shell and discussed the problem with their lubrication engineers. They both told me that conventional hydraulic hose was not suitable for applications involving diesel lubricating oil, nor as diesel fuel lines. They recommended a special type of hydraulic hose that had viton/teflon based internals.
When I spoke to the local hydraulic shop, they had never heard of the hose. I ended up purchasing a roll of the hose from the hose manufacturer. The 2 hoses have done 9 years with out a problem. I use exactly the same engine oil and fuel in my cars as in the equipment.
A few years ago a navy ship down here had an engine room fire killing 2 people, the cause was that a pressurized fuel line had been wrongly replaced with hydraulic hose and had failed.
If you are aware of any alternate standard hose, please let me know. I believe the Merc hoses are not wire braided as they do not require such a high pressure rating.

Chances are that most cars represented on this forum dont have as severe use and for their life expectancy standard wire braided hose would be fine. As we move to higher performance synthetic based lubricants, issues with incompatibility of elastomer compounds is occurring.

Please dont see this as any sort of criticism, you provide excellent advise to all!!!!!

Best wishes & compliments of the season.
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Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving
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  #41  
Old 12-19-2009, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
I contacted both Mobil and Shell and discussed the problem with their lubrication engineers. They both told me that conventional hydraulic hose was not suitable for applications involving diesel lubricating oil, nor as diesel fuel lines.
With regard to diesel fuel, I agree.

With regard to lubricating oil.......basically a dino oil......I'd need to understand exactly what additives are breaking down the hydraulic hose before I accept this claim. It certainly cannot be the base stock.
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  #42  
Old 12-19-2009, 12:56 AM
Accruing prurient interes
 
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Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
With regard to diesel fuel, I agree.

With regard to lubricating oil.......basically a dino oil......I'd need to understand exactly what additives are breaking down the hydraulic hose before I accept this claim. It certainly cannot be the base stock.

No, motor oil will NOT break down hydro lines designed to run it.

Bobcat fluid is SAE 10-30 ND.
Ransomes/Textron hydro fluid is 10-30

I won't claim to know why/how a hydro line is different than an oil cooler line, nor the key differences between UTF/tractor fluid and motor oil. All I know is that I've got a 1984 Ford backhoe at work that's been through 2 engines but still has loads of original hydro hoses...It takes UTF though so again not really an equitable comparison.

I'll bow out of the discussion due to lack of knowledge and experience- if hydraulic lines react negatively to synthetic motor oils, that may well be. It doesn't make sense to me but lots of things don't...
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  #43  
Old 12-19-2009, 08:25 AM
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pawoSD, one look at your lines tells me they will outlast my OEM Meyle lines. How did you route them? As for fluid compatibility, look up the SAE number imprinted on the hose. I'd be surprised if hydraulic hose degrades with engine oil.
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  #44  
Old 12-19-2009, 08:39 AM
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They are 750PSI wrapped hydraulic/oil line. These lines were made at ThermoKing, the diesel powered refrigeration unit people....they have quite a facility around here. The guy there said they use this hose in many oil applications, including engine and hydraulic.
__________________
-diesel is not just a fuel, its a way of life-
'15 GLK250 Bluetec 118k - mine - (OC-123,800)
'17 Metris(VITO!) - 37k - wifes (OC-41k)
'09 Sprinter 3500 Winnebago View - 62k (OC - 67k)
'13 ML350 Bluetec - 95k - dad's (OC-98k)
'01 SL500 - 103k(km) - dad's (OC-110,000km)
'16 E400 4matic Sedan - 148k - Brothers (OC-155k)
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  #45  
Old 12-19-2009, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by pawoSD View Post
They are 750PSI wrapped hydraulic/oil line. These lines were made at ThermoKing, the diesel powered refrigeration unit people....they have quite a facility around here. The guy there said they use this hose in many oil applications, including engine and hydraulic.
What is the SAE number and what diameter hose did you use? 750 psi sounds low for a hydraulic hose. Hydraulic hoses are usually smaller in i.d. and bigger in o.d. for high pressure but not high flow. I'd do the Mercedes hardline adaptation to the flare fittings the same way as you but I would use off the shelf stainless braided teflon lines with 37 degree JIC fittings which are less bulky and more flexible than hydraulic lines.

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