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  #1  
Old 02-15-2010, 10:23 PM
macdoe
 
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Aftermarket Harmonic Balancer?

Hello, I was wondering if anyone knows of an aftermarket harmonic balancer for the 617 engine?

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  #2  
Old 02-16-2010, 12:58 AM
layback40's Avatar
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I am surprised that the OEM one is not suitable. A good second hand one should be ok if it didnt have seal ware on it.
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1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
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  #3  
Old 02-16-2010, 03:28 AM
macdoe
 
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I am not sure why the oem is not suitable, I did not say it was'nt suitable in my simple and single question....so I don't know why you are surprised all of a sudden.

I think the subject of failed harmonic dampers on the 617 has its own chapter on this site and I see yet another person in line for some help on the subject. It seemed like a fair question, that may help others, or bring about some further insight to the subject.

I could never figure out why the round dowels when a simple square keyway works for less complicated machinery like sbc.
I guess that brings the question as to why is there an aftermarket for harmonic balancers in the first place, when oem is so suitable.
If there was ever a canidate for a different design for this problem then I could forsee one for this.
There is nothing worse than pouring money into something and find the damper spinning material off the cranksnout rendering an otherwise perfect running engine useless.
Could just get a different motor and hold my breath that it does'nt happen with the next one. Seems to be a trend according to this site and others. I guess having 800 000 miles on yours you did not run into this problem so we can write off age or mileage as the culprit. Oh and with mileage goes the vibration reason.
OR...Maybe you have had this problem, hence a solution you could share.
I guess I have trouble with not knowing why this happens. As far as I know nobody has offered a reason.
Can't be the tons of horsepower it is putting out.
Share your wares on why the wear. I am curious now why the oem is so great.
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  #4  
Old 02-16-2010, 03:53 AM
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I agree with what you are saying. I have not had a problem with one (touch wood!!!).
Many cars have these little idiosyncrasies. It leaves us to wonder "what were they thinking?"
I thought you had a failure of one on your hands & were looking for one in a hurry. I was wrong!
It is good though to see people on here asking questions, like you have, to see if any one has developed an alternate.
With regard to round rather than square; a guess, maybe the guy how designed it had a concern about sharp square corners from a fatigue view point? Its not for me to try and second guess or justify some one at Benz though.

When I dont understand and cant work out why some one does something, I just say that you cant rationalize irrational behavior!! That's worked for me for a long time.
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Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving
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  #5  
Old 02-16-2010, 07:13 AM
pawoSD's Avatar
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It really is quite a rare occurrence, and most can be traced to a hacked job involving it, or belts that have been on way too tight for way too long. None of ours have ever had a problem. I always keep the belts towards being too loose rather than too tight.
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  #6  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:24 AM
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Location: Alexandria, Virginia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macdoe View Post
Hello, I was wondering if anyone knows of an aftermarket harmonic balancer for the 617 engine?
Aftemarket harmonic balancers are availible for some engines. Haven't tried looking for one for my diesels.
My only experience with an aftermarket balancer was being able to get one from NAPA for a '98 Mitsubishi Galant V6. Part was 1/2 price of OE, worked OK, but was made in China.

Happy Motoring, Mark
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  #7  
Old 02-16-2010, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
A good second hand one should be ok if it didnt have seal ware on it.
The 617 balancing disk is not subject to seal wear.
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  #8  
Old 02-16-2010, 10:17 AM
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There was a recall on the W116 300sd harmonic balancers.
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  #9  
Old 02-16-2010, 10:33 AM
macdoe
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
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Yes, good point..I am no "Benz" engineer either, must be some reason for the round dowels , but can't help to think it did not outweigh the disadvantages as some have found out. Then again, could be up the wrong tree entirely, thinking it even has anything to do with the round pins anyway.

Unfortunately for me you were right, I did have damper problems in the past. Its a long story...with several sequels. I feel I owe it to you so here goes some rambling...enjoy.

My harmonic damper problem began as the large 27mm bolt holding the damper on had actually broken the head off while on the highway at speed. It left a good portion of the broken bolt still threaded in the crankshaft snout. Left me wondering how the engine could run with no pulleys operating, not very much fun to find out why. I patched it together a few years ago, but I think I will now have to replace the engine because of the original failure. I should have done so in the first place, but did not want to face the reality at the time. It is hard to to justify and work to replace an engine that runs so well, for such a stupid reason. In my opinion this is a huge idiosyncrocy.

The current damper has recently developed an even worse wobble and the oil pressure takes awhile to come up after starting the car. I originally put it off at the start of winter cause I began running 0w-40 synthetic oil...thinking the thinner oil probably just needs to make its way back to the guage after sitting and draining down through the small tube it travels in.
I now believe that was wishful thinking since we put the exact same oil in the other wagon and have instant oil pressure. There is something going on in that area, I think.... the oil pump is right behind the damper. I have had to start the car to move it around, but I can't stand to hear that engine run with the oil needle at zero for so long (ten seconds). I don't drive it anymore until it comes apart again. The three year old crank seal is also now leaking. Incorrect movement? I think I have put off the inevitable as long as it would allow.

I resurrected the 79 cause I am too sick to take my wagon apart again right now.

I have a spare 82 SD motor on an engine stand which is where I got the used damper from for part 3 of the saga. The spare motor will need the TD head swapped onto it. I have to save up for new head gaskets and related parts as well as all the other leaks that need to be fixed on the spare while it is out of the car, before the swap. I will not be reusing the original damper and would like to buy a brand new or aftermarket one. I need to be in better health as well.

I feel like I have done as much to that current wagon engine short of rebuilding it which is a shame. I recently struggled with doing a compression test that gave me 325 pounds per cylinder at -35 degrees celcius. very cold block so the cylinders and rings are great. Such a shame to have to start with a different motor. I think I would get even better compression results if the engine was warmer.
I don't know what kind of shape the spare is in since the starter was off that one. The crank snout and related dowel holes, however, are nice and sharp....but, Judging by how the spare engine looks all covered in old oil I could assume the previous owner did not take very good care of it. He was running it without a thermostat as well.

I am at the point of wondering how these thrust washers may play a role. I have never taken one of these engines apart so I have no clue what the thrust washer does. Could the crank have wandered backwards into the block causing the damper to briefly snag the lip of the oil pan breaking the bolt? I wonder if Mercedes Benz changed the material that the thrust washers are made of at some point leaving some engines susceptible to thrust washer wear? Whatever broke that bolt still eludes me? All accesories turn fine. I have replaced the water pump since all this happened, but only cause it was leaking abit. It still turns fine and has no play in the bearing.

I could think and wonder and assume and never know, perhaps I should just try to do what I am told, but it is just not my nature I guess. Stuck on needing to know WHY. This Damper issue is a touchy subject for me perhaps cause I am STILL dealing with it. Time to move on to a different motor I think. Or maybe a different brand of car altogether, but then what will I have to do or think about. I am a little bit addicted to problem solving, but maybe not that good at it. On the road to insanity. How is the thought of welding the damper to the crankshaft....pretty insane thought but it has crossed my mind, recently. Anyways Thanks for the interest.
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  #10  
Old 02-16-2010, 11:28 AM
macdoe
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 759
Took me so long to write that last one, that there are a few response after the second poster which is what my long ramble was responding to.

Thanks again. I should add that the car having the problems is a 1980 300TD that originally came with a 617 non turbo motor, but the previous owner had a used turbo motor installed with a brand new cylinder head just before I purchased the car. I have bills for the car totalling like over 5 grand just before I bought it. I buy my parts from the mechanic that did the work, so they know the history.....maybe they know something they are not telling me, they seemed shocked at how much I got the car for and they are nice guys, they would have said something...maybe...I think?.

I paid 1200 bucks and it came with a brand new 250 dollar battery and 4 brand new tires that would be close to 500 dollars. I like to say I got the car for less than 500 bucks, with the brand new consumables. It has next to no rust and original paint. I guess that does'nt qualify for the cheap wagon club.

I guess If he knew of these problems, I now know why I got it so cheap....but I don't think he did. Younger fellow well off. It was actually his fathers car that he had just passed away. The car was fine for the first summer and part of the winter so it could be that he in fact did not know of any problems and I just had some bad luck.

As far as the belts being too tight, that could have been possible but I don't think I noticed before it happen other than to just glance at them. I was new to driving or working on these at the time so I did not physically check that. I did think about it when I put it back together the first time and made sure not to have it too tight. I ruled that theory out thinking that the belt should break before that 27mm bolt.

I would guess that something would have to shock the running engine to make a bolt that strength break. What is the grade of the bolt? It is probably quite strong since it is suggested to be torqued somewhere around three hundred foot pounds.

Have a look next time you are underneath and see the clearance between the damper and the bottom lip of the oil pan...not much room there at all. I think I could maybe pass a stack of paper 5 sheets thick between it...really could even use a feeler guage it is that close.

Really, you think this it is rare? How often have you heard of a damper failing on a Small block Chevy in the fashion these are failing without some sort of outside influence like too much power added to the motor. I have spoke to several people that have never heard of it on anything unless for a good and reasonable cause. non stock application?

As far as a botched job from previous owner, all I can say is that it did not appear to have ever been removed so that is not likely for me but it is possible I guess. It just seems to me that something might have momentarily seized to be turning in the area of the belts or the damper itself somehow impeded. Still don't know how?

Mine failed just out of the blue.on the highway. I baby that car.... was doing like 100km/hr. just finished slowing from 115kms/hr.

I am curious about the w116 damper recall. I don't know what the guy got the turbo motor from and I doubt I would have any right to that recall considering that it was not the original engine, although I should have the right. They'll tell me too many factors to consider or something along those lines, I can already hear it.

I wonder if I could find out through researching numbers stamped into the block somewhere?
Could you tell me where to look for these numbers?
Why were the dampers recalled?
Thanks again for the interest and if you made it through these long posts.

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