Loud clacking at idle, starts hard
 

Howdy all!

My 82 240D has started acting up . . . about two weeks ago, I drove 3.5 mi to work, then 2 hrs later I drove home, loaded up the car, added 2.5 gal of filtered WVO to the half tank of diesel, then I made a 200 mile run to Phoenix, and left late, so I kept it running hard to about 75 - 78 mph . . . on the way back I stopped and filled up with diesel, and was running the A/C, and slowed down to about 70 - 75mph, the next morning I noticed that it was starting harder . . .

The next week I left work, and drove 3.5 mi home, loaded up the car, and added 1 gal of WVO to 2/3 tank of diesel, then left for a 90 mi run to Tucson in about 10 min . . . It still started hard even though it was up to 70c, and I glowed it till the light went off . . . I backed out of the drive, and drove 100 yards to the end of my street, as I was taking off, at first it seemed normal, but as I shifted to 2nd gear, it lost all power (well it doesn't have much to start out with!:D:eek:) and I saw a cloud of whitish smoke/fog, I did a quick U-turn, and headed for home, it perked back up and ran normal in the drive, so I took it to Tucson . . . 75 mph it ran fine.

When I came out of Sportsman's Warehouse with my new Ruger SRH Alaskan 44 Mag!:D I glowed and started it up . . . almost through the parking lot, it died, with a cloud of whitish smoke, I cranked while I was rolling to a stop, and still no joy! I checked and there was fuel in the filter, and then it started, and we drove about 15 miles and stopped for fuel, I decided to leave it running . . . at an idle it seemed to be a load clacking noise, but it quieted down as I increased rpm, drove it home . . .

It still starts hard, and clacks loadly at an idle . . .

I changed my oil about 1500 mi ago, checked valves at same time, all were still in spec from the last time I adjusted them 10k ago . . . oil pres is about 1.7bar at idle when warm/hot.

I have no record of any injector work ever being done on this . . . could it be it just needs new nozzles? Oil consumption has slowly been climbing . . . when I first got it, it was about one qt per 1kmi, now it is about one qt per 750mi . . . does not seem to be fuel in the oil, but I noticed Sat that I had driven it about .75mi and left it idling, and there was a slight blue haze around the car when I came out!

I have in the past mixed in about 1-2 gal of wvo to the diesel, no problems, but the stuff I put in recently, was thinner, seemed more like the thickness of regular diesel . . . going down the road it runs normal . . . I have ordered a compression tester, but thinking that the injectors need some help . . . and possibly that the thinner WVO contributed to the problem.

So what do you think?

When was the lat time you did a valve adjustment? Might be due.

Yes, in fifth paragraph above . . . do you think that they could get that much out of adj in 1500 miles?

I noticed this difference since my fast (for a 240D) trip, and adding the thinner wvo . . .

I have at times run the car up to 88mph which is it's top end a few times . . . but only for a min or two! I usually drive 55 - 65 mph . . .

I found a couple of nice videos on the Diesel Giant web site last night showing a before and after (sound) comparison of a 300D with old and new injectors... may be your sounds will be familiar?

White smoke is either Coolant (steam), unburned Fuel (fuel not atomized so it was in small enough particles to burn) or water in your fuel (steam again).

Late timing can cause white smoke but since the problem comes and goes this does not seem likely.

If it was mine I would try runing staight Diesel Fuel from a Station you know sells clean water free fuel; as a test.

Air, maybe.

Sticking Injector Nozzle Pintle; possible as it can be intermittant. Try cuting out one Injector at a time and see if the clacking sound goes away when youy do that to any of the Injectors.

Update
 

It only cut out those two times, after I posted this morning I drove to the shooting range, and shot for about 25 min, then started up and drove home without any problems . . . other than clackity clack at about under 1000 rpm, (I don't have a tach) then it smooths out, I have run about 40 gallons since the morning I added the first installment of the thin wvo, two were from a Flying J truckstop, the other two were from the Triple T Truckstop in Tucson, a large truckstop on I-10, so I'd assume that they have good fuel . . . but . . . it only cut out after the last gallon of wvo (and then only a few mins of running!) and since then I have only put in about 10 gallons, I'm down to 1/3 tank now, figuring if it was fuel related, that I'd get it as low as I could, then fill it up with fresh stuff.

I'm not sure if this is just it's time as it has 247,300 miles on it, with no record of injector work . . . or whether it has to do with the wvo I put in it, or it did not like running hard for 6 hours!

When you say "cut out an injector" do you mean with it idling, loosen the line going to the injector?

The white smoke was only those two times it died out . . . not normally.

Would an injector cause hard starting? It kinda stunmbes on one of the cylinders for the first 15-20 seconds, (kinda like a glow plug is out) then runs smoothly, but clacking!

Sounds like fuel starvation to me

But why would it quiet down at higher rpm?

higher RPM means more fuel gets to the engine and could quiet the system down

Could the return line to tank be blocked ? as you posted it had fuel in filter.

Grey/white smoke is running lean and plus the fact it cuts out as well points to a fuel issue.

Crack the return line banjo open a bit with the engine running and see if the clacking stops.

All WVO is not created equal. No WVO I know of is the viscosity of #2 diesel at 80 degrees (even canola).

Do you check it for water? Whats your filtering and dewatering process?

Here's what Id do:
- change both fuel filters
- run a diesel purge
- fill it with #2 fuel for several tanks before doing anything else

Look on the Frybrid.com website for the 'hot pan test'.

It sounds like bad WVO. Tossing in a few gallons to your main tank (assuming its good WVO) shouldn't be giving you these issues.

Im not a WVO hater either...I run it 100% in a two tank kit.

I don't think if return line was blocked it would starve of fuel, more like have to much, but I did loosen the 17mm bango that feeds the cigar hose to the return, just leaked fuel over the top of spin on filter, no difference in clacking.

I then loosened the injector line to the top of each injector . . . it just stalled down the engine a bit, but with change in rpm, it was hard to tell if clatter went away . . . seemed the same on each injector, also spilled diesel on the tops of them . . .

Here is a video, listen to the clacky clatter come and go, I'm sorry the sound is not real good, it sounds much more distinct in real life, but it does seem to clatter for 5 sec, then quiets down like normal, then starts again with no input from me . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc-WEPEXcvM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOpSNJQDUTI

Should I just change the filters? I am hesitant to do that until I use up more of this fuel . . . It has the same filters it came to me with, I have about 10,500 miles on it, and they were changed less than 1K before I got the car.

DD44,

I was only visually checking for water, and stopped pouring, as it got to the bottom of the jug if it looked like it was there . . . I did not know that it could blend into the oil . . .

I was just filtering it through some paper towels, gravity feed . . .

The only way I could do the hot pan test would be to put a skillet in the oven, and wait until it got up to temp . . . I was not doing that.

Would bad fuel make it start hard?

I see we both posted at the same time.

Everyone, including me, is speculating because its not our car, but it sounds like you might have two problems that both might have been brought on by a poorly processed batch of WVO. You might have sent a marginal injector over the edge and that would contribute to the noise and the hard start. But the fuel starvation issue sounds like filter or tank issues that could be WVO related. Check previous suggestions on isolating the clack if its an injector.

If you have been blending WVO in your diesel tank, then poly likely has formed in your tank and may have clogged the intake. WVO should not be put in stock metal tanks. I say this from personal experience in addition to consensus. Do the fuel delivery/return switch to check on a full tank of diesel, and consider cleaning the intake or pulling the tank and cleaning everything if that suggests clogging. Installing fuel pressure gauge is very helpful in sorting things like this out. My opinion is that if the intake is clogged, its worth the extra effort to pull the tank and have it cleaned, especially if you intend to continue blending WVO and diesel.

Oil burning at 247K...not surprising. Perhaps a head rebuild is in your future.

Another unlikely possibility is the overflow/pressure relief valve on the return side of the IP, but I've never heard of it causing acute symptoms in a 616/617(though it does on the similarly designed older Cummins). The clacking definitely sounds like an injector.

Water?...I would check the contents of the filter to see if you introduced any water. Probably not, but would be useful to know.

No one has mentioned that WVO can cause sticking rings. The increase in oil consumption may be caused by the gradual sticking of rings.
As you say that you are not using much WVO, just stop it all together for a few months and see if there is an improvement.
The clack clack at low revs could be injector noise. the loosening of injector hard lines is a good way to check on this.
Doing long distance h/way runs normally improves the injectors & quietens them.

Your idea of running the tank down very low & then filling with diesel is a good one.

Indeed, WVO used at too high concentration at low temps might result in sticking rings and I agree that running it hard for a while on diesel is good idea to see if oil consumption and other things improve, but the oil burning might also be a high mileage issue on a 616 engine. Yes, they will last a million miles, but not without a bit of engine work. Try the easy stuff first as suggested, change filters, check fuel intake, run diesel only. But I suspect a new set of injectors will work wonders. Report back, these are the sorts of things we are curious about as a group. Without comparative studies, its an iterative process.

Yes. If you loosen Fuel Injection Line Nut that Cylinder gets no Fuel. If that was the was making the noise or was one of the Injectors making the noise I would expect the noise do decrease.
Also if that Injector was not working very well and you cut off the Fuel to it it not working would not change how the Engine operates.

Yes. The Injectors job is to is to atomize the Fuel so that it is easy to burn. If it cannot do that all the Fuel will not burn and also it will burn late.

If you ar using the Stock Injector Spray Nozzles the little Nozzle Pintel has 2 holes Drill in it; see the pic.
Even using Diesel Fuel over time those wholes seem to plug up. I did not have the smoking issues but on my Car I had a lot of shaking durning idle. When I pulled the Injectors I found that all of those holes were plugged.

Also the Injectors I have pulled at the Junk Yard also mostly had those holes plugged.

The manual says the holes are there for idle and low speed low volume Fuel quanities.

WVO is thicker and more likely to plug up those holes.

Thnaks for the ideas, I did not notice any real difference in clatter . . . when I loosened the injector nut, but the engine stumbled and seemed as if it was struggling to stay running, this was the same response on each and all injectors. (of course they all could be well used up too!)

What about the come and go clacking clatter? It seems to be no real rythem, it clatters for a bit then stops, then starts clacking/clattering again with no input from me!

I have run about 15 gallons of WVO total through it in the last 7k mi. . . .

If this is the problem, it is not worth it to me . . . I got it from the local salvage yard, which a local resturaunt brought . . . I don't feel like going to all the trouble of the filtering/de-watering setup, for the small amount I use . . .

I need to run to Tucson again this Friday . . . I should be able to use up the rest of the fuel (or most of it!) I just had a crazy idea! What if I ran it till I was out of fuel, then put 100% diesel in it, change the filters, prime it, and go from there . . . is it worth the hassle of being on the side of the road, trying to get it going, compared to empting the tank? I always carry spare fuel & both filters.

One more thing I just thought of . . . About 2 months ago I filled it up with about 12 gals of B100 bio-diesel, then bought another 5 gal in a can, and filled that in later . . .

Most of the time lately I have been in a hurry . . . so I have been keeping the hammer down, so I'm assuming that the majority of the excessive motor oil consumpyions is from high revs . . .

I would ussually only add a gal or maybe two at the most, just before a 150+ mile trip, and then fill up with diesel on the way home . . . so the first part would be a higher consentration of wvo, and very thined out by the time I added the 10-12 gals of diesel.

I'm still having trouble understanding the "starving for fuel" issue . . . if the tank screen or filters were plugging up . . .I would think (there I go again!:D) that it would idle fine, but high rpm with a load would be when the problem would show up.

Shawn,

Filtering through paper towels definitely won't cut it for WVO use. Just as an example, I dewater in a heated upflow type system in a 55 gallon drum, then filter through a 5 micron filter. From there I go through a 2 micron filter into the tank. The gunk and water in WVO is what gets folks into trouble.

The B100 is a major wildcard in this too. Biodiesel is an amazing solvent for the gunk in your tank.

You should really change your fuel filters regardless of your current symptoms. The poorly filtered WVO along with introduction of B100 along with 10k miles on regular fuel is a recipe for plugged filters.

But before you do that, you can blow off your in-tank filter screen by reversing the feed and return fuel lines temporarily. The best thing to do, as suggested, would be to pull your tank and clean it out, but thats a commitment in time and grime.

Thanks DD44,

I'll swap the lines around on my lunch break today . . . Do you think I should change my filters now, or wait till I get some more of my current tank burnt off? (I have about 1/3 tank left)

Now!
 

I changed the fuel lines around, no difference . . .

On the way home I decided to try a 0-60 time, as I had recorded it when I had first gotten the car last year . . . back then 10k mi ago it did a 0-60 in 11 seconds! Well KMH!:P took me 26 sec to get to 60 mph! Now today it was 30 seconds! Same stretch of road too . . .

Update
 

OK, so I left the fuel lines switched around, left for Tucson this morning, got most of the way there when it died, like it ran out of fuel. so I shut it down just as I was passing an exit, and coasted over across the entrance ramp, and parked on the shoulder . . . I dumped the 5 gals I had brought with me for such an ocasion, and reversed the fuel lines back the way there were supposed to be, primed it, and drove off another 10 miles to the truck stop, where I put 5 gal back into the can, and the other 11 gals into my tank, it was full, but should have been at least another gal . . .

Anyhow, it still rattles, clatter, clacking at an idle whatever one wants to call it . . . I'm gonna work on getting the injectors happier, and change out the filters tomorrow . . .

We gave it a hard workout on the way home, as I bought a full size bed for my Dad who will be visiting soon, and some 2X10's and a couple sheets of 5/8" plywood on top, and a trunk full of groceries, and water softener salt! Plus ran the AC at MAX! It was a struggle up some of the hills . . . Usually I could keep it at 60-65 up all the hills in fourth gear, today it was 45 mph in third with it to the floor!:eek: Temp was running around 100, up one hill it hit about 115c, was 90 -95 f out today!

Update!
 

Well, it has been a long six weeks!

I decided to get some used injectors off a guy here on the forum, and he ran into some family problems . . . and by the time he got them shipped to Sean Watts to rebuild them for me, but he had left for Germany, he has just recently gotten back, and I should see my injectors in a week or so!

I ran my tank completely out a total of twice, once with the lines hooked up in reverse, and then I switched them out, and put them back "right"! I have run a total of 44 gallons of fuel through it.

Today I decided to finally change the fuel filters! (kinda wish I had sooner!) I wanted to make sure I had gotten as much of the old fuel out, before putting new filters on!

Here is what I found when I dumped the fuel out of the secondary filter:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...D/WaterOil.jpg

I cut open that filter and this is what it looked like!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...daryfilter.jpg

Here is the primary filter with some fuel in it:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...maryfilter.jpg

And I cut it open:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...lteropened.jpg

Think I should run some "bug juice" in it? Or has every thing come through and just caught in the filters? It has not gotten any worse, but runs slightly better now with the clean filters on, but still clacks!

Here is a recent picture . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...holdRanchs.jpg