Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-19-2010, 10:36 PM
Fattyman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 547
Injection Pump Timing. Pump won't Drip!

The car is a Euro 240D with a factory rebuilt '82 motor. I decided to check to IP timing because this car is gutless. My Diesel Vanagon has more power! Car starts right up without smoke in the morning so I thought the timing would be close. Set the crank to 24BTC on #1 Compression stroke. Hooked up an electric fuel pump to keep my hands free. Throttle open and Vacuum shutoff disconnected. Initial run has a steady flow coming out of the tube. (home made from an injection line). Loosen the bolts and turn the IP towards the motor gives me a very slight improvement but it still flows. Turning the other way brings me back to where I started. I have turned the pump all the way to the stops in both directions and cannot get the flow to come anywhere near to dripping. I think I need to remove the pump and re install as it might be off just a spline. Has anyone else come across these symptoms? I'd hate to remove the pump if I don't have to but I'm ready to do it if there is nothing I've overlooked. Thanks in advance.

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-19-2010, 11:13 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,971
You might rotate the crankshaft to find out where the timing is actually set. That will give you a better idea as to whether it will be necessary to re-index the IP.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-19-2010, 11:57 PM
Fattyman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 547
I'm going by the timing marks on the pulley. 24 BTC is where I have it right now. I think you mean rotate the crankshaft to see it I can get the IP to drip? Good idea.
Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-20-2010, 12:43 AM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattyman View Post
The car is a Euro 240D with a factory rebuilt '82 motor. I decided to check to IP timing because this car is gutless. My Diesel Vanagon has more power! Car starts right up without smoke in the morning so I thought the timing would be close. Set the crank to 24BTC on #1 Compression stroke. Hooked up an electric fuel pump to keep my hands free. Throttle open and Vacuum shutoff disconnected. Initial run has a steady flow coming out of the tube. (home made from an injection line). Loosen the bolts and turn the IP towards the motor gives me a very slight improvement but it still flows. Turning the other way brings me back to where I started. I have turned the pump all the way to the stops in both directions and cannot get the flow to come anywhere near to dripping. I think I need to remove the pump and re install as it might be off just a spline. Has anyone else come across these symptoms? I'd hate to remove the pump if I don't have to but I'm ready to do it if there is nothing I've overlooked. Thanks in advance.


For the Engine to run at all it has to achieve Begin of Injection (Port Closing) even if the timing is not correct.
Sometimes the IP needs to be moved really slowly or you go past it.

If your IP has the Plug on the side if the Governor for the Timing/Locking Pin you might try eyeballing the verticle raised part and center it in the hole. However, if you do that the timing marks are 15 Degrees After Top Dead Center past the Compression Stroke.

Off subject but what Engine is in the Vanagon?
My Volvo has a 6 Cylinder VW Diesel in it.
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-20-2010, 09:19 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattyman View Post
I think you mean rotate the crankshaft to see it I can get the IP to drip?
That is correct. If the IP drips in another 10 degrees or so of crankshaft rotation, you will confirm that you are properly set up, on the compression stroke, etc. And you can be confident that re-indexing the IP is a necessary course of action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
Sometimes the IP needs to be moved really slowly or you go past it.
"Past it" would result in no flow at all; the originator reports constant flow throughout the adjustment range.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-20-2010, 02:38 PM
Fattyman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 547
I'm guessing the the pump is too far advanced since I'm getting flow from the tube. Drip indicates "start of delivery"? Or should I say I'm "assuming"!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-20-2010, 03:13 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 342
Are you certain you're not a full crank revolution out of phase? The injection pump, like the cam, rotates at half speed. Therefore only every OTHER TDC/start-of-delivery mark is correct.
__________________
James Marriott
2003 Buick Regal
1983 300D (228k, frau Auto)
1996 Suburban K2500 (192k, 6.5 turbo diesel/4WD towmaster 10,000)
www.engineeringworks.biz
1987 300SDL junker 170k
1982 300SD junker, 265k
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-20-2010, 03:34 PM
Fattyman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 547
The engine is in valve overlap on number one. Is that what you were referring to?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-20-2010, 04:49 PM
Alastair's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: South Wales U.K.
Posts: 1,064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattyman View Post
The engine is in valve overlap on number one. Is that what you were referring to?

Well, if the engine is between exhaust closing and inlet opening, nos 1 pot.... you'll need to turn it exactly one turn more!

Pump will always flow fuel on drip-test unless its at the right spot, or is actually injecting....

Fuel is injected when the spill-port closes inside the pump indicated by the slowing to a drip. the fuel pressure then builds up in the element and line and opens injector near the end of the Compression-Stroke....

(Not the end of the exhaust-stroke--where it is now!)
__________________
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...0TDnoplate.jpg

Alastair AKA H.C.II South Wales, U.K. based member

W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K,
-Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog.

W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow,
-Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-20-2010, 05:29 PM
Fattyman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 547
By valve overlap I meant it's on the compression stroke as described here:

http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/OM615OM616InjPumpTiming
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-20-2010, 06:50 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattyman View Post
I'm guessing the the pump is too far advanced since I'm getting flow from the tube.
Too far retarded. The sequence is a bit counterintuitive. Full flow occurs before the drip. The drip is followed by no flow.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-20-2010, 07:00 PM
Fattyman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 547
Counterintuitive indeed. I'm going out there now as the shade has come around. Wife's asleep and son is at Grandma's. A good time to work on the car. I'm going to leave the IP installed and rotate the crank both ways. Then I will R&R the pump in the opposite direction one notch. Unless it turns out that it's way off, then I'll go 2. I knew I should have left the radiator out!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-20-2010, 07:17 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattyman View Post
I'm going to leave the IP installed and rotate the crank both ways.
I would suggest that you not rotate the crankshaft in the backwards direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattyman View Post
Then I will R&R the pump in the opposite direction one notch.
If you remove the pump, reposition the crankshaft to 24 degrees BTDC with the pump removed. Then align the index marks on the pump and reinstall in the center of the adjustment range. Be sure to renew the IP flange gasket.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-20-2010, 08:25 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangofox007 View Post
Too far retarded. The sequence is a bit counterintuitive. Full flow occurs before the drip. The drip is followed by no flow.
There is a yes and no to the above. If you are barely moving the IP the Flow will stop.
However, if you keep turning the IP the Plunger moving up will flow the amount of Fuel that would be Injected and after it reaches the End of Injection the Fill Port is exposed again and it will flow again.

So if you rotate the IP too fast you can easily blip by Begin Injection.

Even more confusing (this happens when you rotate the IP Housing in the direction that would cause retarded/Late Injection) is that as the Plunger is going down you will also reach a point were it will drip followed by no flow until the Fill Port is open again.

Just think for about $35 a Fuel Injection Pump Timing/Locking Pin could have been used and the job would have been done!

Below is how I rotated my IP when I Drip Timed mine.
The Big Channel Locks gave me a lot of leverage and I sort of gripped with handles with one hand and tapped the on the end of the handles rotating the IP Housing tiny amounts with the other Hand until I got the Drips I wanted.
Then I reach down and pump some more on the Hand Primer to bring the pressure up to besure I was still getting the same amount of drips.
Attached Thumbnails
Injection Pump Timing. Pump won't Drip!-fuel-injection-pump-rotated-channel-locks.jpg  
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

Last edited by Diesel911; 06-20-2010 at 08:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-20-2010, 10:17 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
There is a yes and no to the above. If you are barely moving the IP the Flow will stop.
However, if you keep turning the IP the Plunger moving up will flow the amount of Fuel that would be Injected and after it reaches the End of Injection the Fill Port is exposed again and it will flow again.
I should have been more clear. I was referring to the sequence which occurs when rotating the crankshaft in the normal direction. Obviously, the sequence will be reversed when rotating the IP in the retarding direction, which is comparable to rotating the crankshaft backwards.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page