Which is a better engine: 12-v Cummins 5.9 or Merz 300 turbo? - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

777funk · #31 07-01-2010, 12:04 AM

Neither,
The 603 will smoke both of them in stock form. Crank it up and it'll smoke a cranked up Cummins. I've been tempted to tamper with the boost and fuel on mine but never had the guts. I don't have a pyro and 150 HP is enough to keep me happy.

The Finns with their impressive 400 HP 603's... that would be fun!

4x4_Welder · #32 07-01-2010, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

... then I'll pick up a case of bud and head over to the local monster truck show while listening to some country music.

I'll pass.

Come on, we all know you are more comfortable with your granola, techno and protests-
Stereotypes aside, you aren't going to find an import truck that can hold with the domestics, especially a diesel one. And before you start screaming Mitsu/Fuso, Isuzu, and Hino, show me one with a bed and 1-ton registered capacity that you can insure as a private pickup.

woodrat · #33 07-01-2010, 04:26 AM

Funny to see people holding such strongly held partisan views on a question like this. Both the 12 valve, all mechanical 5.9 Cummins and the 616/617 Benz diesels are among the best and most reliable engines ever made, as near as I can tell. They obviously have totally different applications, but if one loves a good diesel engine, then there's a lot to love about both of these.

As far as dismissing domestic trucks goes, I do think that generally, my 82 Toyota was a "better" light truck than my 92 Dodge is, but it couldn't do nearly the amount of work that the Dodge does, even in it's falling apart condition, body-wise. I routinely tow loads up to 10,000 pounds, and the Cummins/Dodge does this with ease, while getting 15-18mpg. Hard to find much fault with that, even if it does leak like a sieve when it rains...

t walgamuth · #34 07-01-2010, 06:57 AM

Yep. Apples and oranges. but if you have work to do....a trailer to haul, A dodge with cummins is hard to beat.

My 03 cummins with stick reminds me of a much larger more powerful 240d. It makes me smile when I think about it.

And its fuel economy is pretty close to what my 350SDL was. over 20 highway versus a couple or three at most more with the 350.

fruitcakesa · #35 07-01-2010, 07:04 AM

I agree about about the Dodge body but you cannot beat the strength and reliablity of the Cummins, particularly the 2nd gen 12v's.
It really is not a fair comparison.
I love all my diesels for what they have been designed and they all perform well if properly maintained and serviced.
BTW, I had at least 400# of fruit and nuts [for fruitcake baking] in the trunk of my 240d and other than being a little nose-high it accelerated

and handled as if empty with 30 mpg.
Of course, the Cummins can do the same with a ton in the bed except with less fuel mileage.
Again, it is apples and oranges

#36 07-01-2010, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4x4_Welder

I used to work in the shop at a trucking company- They bought trucks from OTR/long haul companies, typically with 950k to 1.2m on them, and they all came with a stack of service documents. Oil changes every 20k or so, a clutch here and there, and aside from a couple that had top-end work done, none had had the engines opened up.
A Cummins 6BT will run 500k, but then it was designed for it. It is a smaller medium duty truck engine, Chrysler managed to shoehorn them into their trucks and the rest is history. The engines as used in the Dodge trucks are turned up quite a bit from the medium duty truck version, but still they do last quite a while. As has been stated though, the wrapping it comes in is garbage.

I'm splitting hairs here, but Chrysler is not the one that shoe horned the 6BT into a Dodge pickup. They hired Jack Roush to do it. He did all the engineering on it. He said that they had to do lots of things for sound deadening including a stiffener in the oil pan. I guess before the stiffener, the oil pan flexed and acted like a speaker.

So you might say that Chrysler did it because they paid Jack Roush's engineering bill. Sort of like when someone says they built a house, they really mean that they wrote a check to someone to build the house for them.

#37 07-01-2010, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

Wow, open mind much?

I'm guessing if you had the opportunity to listen to the sound of a Cummins 5.9 turbo spooling up as you tip into the throttle at the base of a mountain and watch the boost climb to about 25-28 PSI as the EGT settles in around 1,000F you'd be a bit more passionate about a 'domestic truck'. This is a Diesel discussion forum right?

But my all means limit yourself to the dull roar of your OM 61X engines, you don't have a clue what you are missing.

Yep, when it comes to sound, the 6BT is an all star major leaguer while our precious 123's are Pony Leaguers. Nothing like listening to the turbo spool up in one of those things. I had a sliding back window in my one ton, and I kept it cracked open most all the time, just so I could enjoy the music.

#38 07-01-2010, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

... then I'll pick up a case of bud and head over to the local monster truck show while listening to some country music.

I'll pass.

Nothing beats elitism. Ever consider running for congress?

#39 07-01-2010, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4x4_Welder

Come on, we all know you are more comfortable with your granola, techno and protests-
Stereotypes aside, you aren't going to find an import truck that can hold with the domestics, especially a diesel one. And before you start screaming Mitsu/Fuso, Isuzu, and Hino, show me one with a bed and 1-ton registered capacity that you can insure as a private pickup.

EXACTLY RIGHT!!!!

When it comes to diesel trucks of all sizes US is KING! No one else in the world matches the US big rigs or diesel trucks of ANY size.

That said, it's not a good thing. The REASON that the US has BY FAR the greatest trucks is because the US has BY FAR the WORST rail system.

rstl99 · #40 07-01-2010, 08:08 AM

Very interesting thread, even though the comparison is indeed a bit meaningless as many have stated.

To add pears to the apple and oranges debate, what about the venerable 3B 4 cyl 3.4L non-turbo diesel engine in early 80's Toyota Land Cruisers (made by Hino, sleeved, also used in their forklifts and delivery trucks)? In this case, we're talking about something in between a MB diesel car and a 3/4-1 ton pickup, and somewhat equivalent to the 300GD G-wagen. Great quality Toyota truck (though those 60 series were rust-prone as hell up here in Canada, where they were fitted with diesels, much to the chagrin of folks south of the border who got the gas models), with very rugged, all mechanical commercial-grade diesel engine.

I own a descendant, an 80 series Land-Cruiser from Europe fitted with reportedly equally reliable and long-lived engine, a 6 cyl 1HZ 4L diesel. My "problem" is I am planning some long road trips up North and down South, since Freedom-55 is just around the corner, and would see myself better served in a truck/camper combo than a Land-Cruiser towing a small camper trailer. So I've been leaning on the Dodge Cummins (since diesel is the way to go for me, and I'm not as sure about Ford/GM diesel trucks).

This thread has further underlined the great engine / crappy truck issues, hence my dilemma. Occasionally nice southern 91-93 Dodges show up locally, without rust, but I gather from reading this thread that this is only one part of the equation (ie. cab leaks, undercarriage issues). One of my reasons for considering a Dodge is it could get fixed anywhere in N-A if/when

I had a problem with it - not so easy for a European Land-Cruiser.

chasinthesun · #41 07-01-2010, 08:53 AM

I remember a story that the early 90s dodge 5.9 trucks had a frame bending issue due to heavy capacity towing ,alot of motor vs not enough truck.They fixed it with a kit to reinforce the frame underneath the cab.Heresay or fact ,not sure,its a story I heard.

75Sv1 · #42 07-01-2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

I'm splitting hairs here, but Chrysler is not the one that shoe horned the 6BT into a Dodge pickup. They hired Jack Roush to do it. He did all the engineering on it. He said that they had to do lots of things for sound deadening including a stiffener in the oil pan. I guess before the stiffener, the oil pan flexed and acted like a speaker.

So you might say that Chrysler did it because they paid Jack Roush's engineering bill. Sort of like when someone says they built a house, they really mean that they wrote a check to someone to build the house for them.

That's the first I've heard that story. I talked with one of the persons I know to have worked on the early project. Said he knew of Jack Rousch from living in OH from racing. But, didn't know of any conection of him to the 5.9 being in the Dodge truck.
Now, I think people are comparing einges from different eras. Still, the late 80's VW Rabbit still got better gasmilage than a lot of these new Hybrid cars.
Tom

FinnJohn · #43 07-01-2010, 09:37 AM

Dodge trucks aren't actually all that bad. The engine makes them look flimsy in comparison and that leaky cab thing can be a problem (or was on mine -- the raingutters go all the way around the front of the cab, and if I parked on a hill rain would run over the top left and through the front door seal) but like with any other old beater built by anyone but Mercedes, you just have to replace stuff when it breaks. Before 1994, Fords are better, especially from a passenger-comfort perspective -- my old '92 was built just like a '72, with bouncy plastic bench seat and lurchy ride. But the Cornbinder diesel, while a great motor, is a pig at the pumps and not as durable or torquey as the Cummins; Chevs are better too, but then you have to get one of those Detroit Diesel 4-strokers (if it's an early pre-Duramax one) -- good motors, really, but mediocre compared to the other two.

If you do get a Dodge, make sure it has either a 727 (3-speed auto, no OD) or a stickshift.

Anyway, that's my rant for the day.

Back on topic: I would submit that durability and efficient use of fuel are not apples-to-oranges issues. You can meaningfully compare engines on that basis. Although you guys are right, nobody is going to replace his 300SD with an old Dodge pickup for daily driving use -- well, almost nobody.

mytimeyet · #44 07-01-2010, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4x4_Welder

Come on, we all know you are more comfortable with your granola, techno and protests-
Stereotypes aside, you aren't going to find an import truck that can hold with the domestics, especially a diesel one. And before you start screaming Mitsu/Fuso, Isuzu, and Hino, show me one with a bed and 1-ton registered capacity that you can insure as a private pickup.

It is possible, I have a Isuzu NPR with the 4L diesel. The hard part was getting it insured, but my auto ins. co. was very good about it.