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  #1  
Old 09-01-2010, 03:15 AM
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OM617 valve guide and valve seat question

G'day folks,

I'm back in the brown stuff again - I need some clarification regarding the replacement of valve guides on an OM617 engine.

(See http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=276144 for the problem)

I've read through chapter 05-135 of the FSM and it seems to suggest that to replace the valve guides you just need to push them out - it doesn't say anything about heating the cylinder head to gas mark 20 / 400 degrees C / 750 degrees F.

It does say that you need to allow the guide and head to cool before you check the firmness of fit - am I right in assuming that any heat made here is due to forcing the guide in place?

Has anyone done this job before?

(Any link to a thread here? - I can't find one)

At the end of the chapter (05-135) it then says to re-cut the valve seats... which makes sense as the seat needs to be really perpendicular to the guide - but it doesn't seem to say you need to go through the whole grinding paste sealing routine that I would expect to have to do on a petrol engine - is this part of the process implied in chapter 05-155?

Any help will be greatly appreciated - I'm a bit unsure about this one

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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



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Last edited by Stretch; 09-01-2010 at 03:16 AM. Reason: Added in link to other thread
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  #2  
Old 09-01-2010, 05:30 AM
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Here's a good "valve job" link I've found

http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/valvejob.html

Has anyone here experience of doing similar work on an OM617?
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #3  
Old 09-01-2010, 08:23 AM
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I've tried searching on the internet for a "Hunger type VDNSL 1/45/30 order No. 236.03.308" but I can't find this hand grinding machine - are these things or similar still made?

I've found lapping attachments for drills but that's not quite the same.
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #4  
Old 09-01-2010, 08:39 AM
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Ah ha I've found this

http://www.sj-mc.com/en/ProductView.asp?ID=32

What do you all think of that then?
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #5  
Old 09-01-2010, 01:31 PM
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I guess this thread is confusing - so here's a summary of the most important questions so far

1) Has anyone ever done a DIY valve guide replacement?
2) If so do you need to pre-heat the head before removing and re-installing the guides?
3) Has anyone come across a hand grinding machine for refacing valve seats?
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #6  
Old 09-01-2010, 02:54 PM
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I have not done any valve work on any Mercedes so I can only give some thoughts.

To resurface the Valve Seats you need a Valve Seat Grinder (you can see them on Ebay) or a Valve Seat Cutter. While Mercedes I believe shows a cutter in the Manual it is archaic.
I have a Valve Set Cutter set for my old 1953 Chevy and it does not do as good a job as a Valve Seat Grinder.

Next is if you are reusing the old Valve the Valve face also needs to be re-grinding. I have seen cutters for that also but they are most often for something like a Lawn Mower Engine and most likely will not work on what the Mercedes Exhaust Valves are made of and maybe even the Intake Vlaves.

I have cut the Valve Face on Motor Cycle Valves on a Lathe and lapped them in to the Seats.

On the previously mentioned 53 Chevy I had no way to re-grind the Valve Faces so I bought new valves and lapped them in.

On another Engine I had no way to grind the Valve Seats but had a bunch of old Vlaves that I had ground the Valve Faces on; on a real Valve Face Grinder. I used the re-ground valves to lap the the Valve Seats before I put in the good Valves.

In short without the correct equipment you are in a real bind.
And, hand lapping the valve is slow an time consuming but not hard and need little equipment. If you cannot grind the Valve Face or Seat with the correct equipment lapping is going to be essential.
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  #7  
Old 09-01-2010, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Army View Post
I guess this thread is confusing - so here's a summary of the most important questions so far

1) Has anyone ever done a DIY valve guide replacement?
2) If so do you need to pre-heat the head before removing and re-installing the guides?
3) Has anyone come across a hand grinding machine for refacing valve seats?

The cylinder head is heated to make it slightly easier to remove and install the guides.

The Hunger machine tool cost about $4000! and if you where doing this work on a semi regular basis it would be worth it as it is a finely made device that is absolutely accurate. I have two Hunger tools, the valve seat cutter and a second smaller but very similar tool that is used to cut a groove into the old worn out of spec valve seat that then allows the valve seat to be pulled out from it's recess. If you elect to DIY rather than have a machine shop do it, the next best tool would be a Nuway brand tools, you would need the correct pilots to fit into and align with the new valve guides, and you would need one or more cutters to cut the correct angles of the valve seats, depending on the condition of the valve seats in the head you may have enough "meat" to recut them or you may need new seats.

The MB valve seats I have worked on had three angles that had to be cut, I'm not certain of the OM 617 seats. You would need a cutter for each angle, but some cutters come with one angle on each side so it can be a little less expensive, figure about $3-400 for the Nuway tools including two pilots and three cutters, a few new blades etc, ebay usually has some most of the time.

The less expensive route will be new valves as they are already faced from the factory, with newly cut faces you will still need to lap the valve to the seat.

If for some reason you don't want new valves, Nuway also makes a valve refacing tool called the Gizmatic for about $400, but you should be able to get any original in spec valves refaced for probably $10-15 each at any machine shop.
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  #8  
Old 09-01-2010, 03:57 PM
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Ive done this job, on OM.617 Valve guides, valves and re-cut seats...

Knock old guides out Upwards from the combustion-chamber side, replace Downwards from the camshaft side, setting to the height specified in the WSM.

No heat needed.--Just a good stepped mandrel and a big 'ammer....

Re-cut the seats with a standard 30 degree valve-seat cutter--Some pressure is needed as the seats are hardened.

Using new valves, lap in with fine grinding-paste, number valves with Tippex to be refitted to the same hole it was ground into.

Clean all traces of filings and grinding-paste properly from the head and valves,--pressure-wash/steam-clean/soap-powder solution good for the head.....
--dry well and immediately coat with summit like WD40 lightly to prevent surface-rusting

Refit valves lightly lubricating stems and guides with good motor-oil Invert head onto wood surface.

Fit new seals using the special tool included in the seal kit. (Looks like a tiny drinking-straw to prevent damage to seal lip, Make sure they are pressed fully home on guide...)
--refit springs, rotators, retainers and lock-nuts and caps

--Refit head to engine.

Job done....
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  #9  
Old 09-02-2010, 03:39 AM
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Thanks for the help folks - I'll see what I can come up with - cost the whole thing up and compare it with Dutch labour rates!!!
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #10  
Old 09-02-2010, 09:33 AM
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Update:- I've opted to get someone else to do it for me. After speaking to the MB dealer I was advised to go and see a chap who "has been doing for years"... after speaking with this bloke I got the distinct feeling that he knew what he was talking about. He gave me loads of tips for re-sealing the rear crankshaft seal for example - and showed me parts on the head where previously there had been a water leak and where parts of the valve seats were sealing properly and other parts not...

So all in all he's skimming the head - sorting out my pre-chambers - re-seating the valves and lapping 'em in for a price that is a going to be way way way way less than the machinery I'd need to get my grubby hands on. So no new toys this time!
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #11  
Old 01-06-2013, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair View Post
Ive done this job, on OM.617 Valve guides,

Re-cut the seats with a standard 30 degree valve-seat cutter--Some pressure is needed as the seats are hardened.
That's what I was looking for right there. Thank you.
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  #12  
Old 01-06-2013, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mopar65pa View Post
That's what I was looking for right there. Thank you.
You might want to do some research on this. In Trade School I was told to use the softer Grinding Stones on the Hardened Valve Seats and the hard Grinding Stones on the soft Valve seat area (like most gassers used to have cast integrally with the Cylinder Head)?

I was also taught to use only the weight of the Grinding Tool during grinding.
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  #13  
Old 01-06-2013, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mopar65pa View Post
That's what I was looking for right there. Thank you.
In the end I got a machine shop to do this job for me - I took along a copy of the FSM chapter 05-155 and showed them that there are 3 angles that need to be cut into the head.



EDIT - please note this is data for the non turbo OM617
Attached Thumbnails
OM617 valve guide and valve seat question-snapshot11.jpg  
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

Last edited by Stretch; 01-06-2013 at 11:10 AM. Reason: Added a warning
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  #14  
Old 01-06-2013, 11:11 AM
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Data for TURBO OM617 is slightly different

See chapter 05-291 in the turbo section for that data

Attached Thumbnails
OM617 valve guide and valve seat question-snapshot12.jpg  
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #15  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:45 PM
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When I was at Metric Motors in Canoga Park, Ca. a few years ago, I went through their shop to check out the operation.

They have a valve grinding bit , or machine (don`t remember which few yrs I was there) that grinds the 3 angles in one operation.

Charlie

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