Insanity is catching... should I sell the '96 E300D?
 

Well, like clockwork my wife is getting the itch for a new car. She seems to want a new car about every 3 years and her Mini Cooper was our most recent purchase about 3 years ago. She doens't even know what kind of car she wants... just that she wants something new. I stupidly chimed in "I know what I'd like... a newer Merc diesel!" I then added that we couldn't afford one.

Well, she jumped on it and said that if we sold our Cooper and '96 E300D, then we wouldn't be far off from a later model Bluetec. Yeesh!

So, I pose this question for anyone who wants to take a few pot shots at it... is it worth the hassel of getting rid of the two cars in favor of a Bluetec? I've not really heard much about buyer satisfaction with the newer diesels... are they built as well as the '96? Also, I have no idea what my '96 is worth... just that I've done quite a bit of work on it to get it where it is now... a reliable daily driver.

Personally, I'd be happy just keeping the '96... it's in good shape and I've crawled into many of its nooks and crannies in keeping it up to snuff. The prospect of a newer diesel would be attractive IF I could justify (in my lil' noggin) a reason for upgrading.

Any input would be appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

-l-

In a word, yes! If you can afford it - do it, is my advice. A newish upgrade in MB diesel cars is fully justified in my mind every 15 or so years.

The E320 Bluetecs are masterfully crafted machines, and '07s and now '08s can be had in the low $30K range, with low miles. That's value to me.

The reason my sig. car is for sale, is because I am shopping for the kind of E320 Bluetec I just described above.

Good shopping!

IF - big 'if'
 

IF you have much of a highway commute you can justify it with improved fuel mileage.

Household income in the USA was flat this year and consumer confidence it very low. No one is buying stuff- which depresses prices on used goods. Your two used cars are gonna sell for cheap. I've seen multiple '96-'97 e300's sell for under $5K here in the NY area. CL is full of MB diesel super deals all over. Your car is known, it works you like it AND it's a MB diesel. Leave it alone already.

A friend of mine just got an 08 CDI Bluetec but without urea injection. 25K on the clock and whatever they call Starmark these days for ~$26K. Darn thing needed a $1200 module within his first month. I love the car but I'd get an extended warranty.

Sixto
87 300D

It's hard to financially justify a newer car when your old ones still work OK. (imo)

Don't even dream of fixing it yourself if it breaks...

All,

Thanks for your replys.

Well, the consensus seems to be not to go the new(er) vehicle route. From what I've read (review-wise) on the Bluetecs, they are awsome cars, but Cirrusman brings up a issue that would need to be addressed before I went that route.

As I am a state worker in Idaho, I don't earn enough to be able to afford trips to the dealership. I've worked on all my own cars (cookbook mechanic) since day one and they only get a fondling by professionals when there is a need for an expensive tool that I don't have.

Both of the two trips I've made to Mercedes dealerships were unpleasant. Both trips were for parts, and both times I was treated pretty poorly for having the audacity to not throw money at their service departments. In short, I don't really care to visit a dealership again in this lifetime, so a vehicle tightly tied to the dealerships' repair shop doesn't interest me. More feedback on the "fixable" aspect of these cars by shadetree machanics would be appreciated.

Currently, I get anywhere from 34 to 38 mpg in my '96 (depending on the length of the trip), so the increase in mileage (if ratings are true for the newer vehicles) would be negligable... 'takes that out of the equation.

I did look at resale value on my '96 and that was disappointing, though not totally unexpected. I imagine this is why I no longer buy new cars. This makes the later cars a bit more pricey to get in to and makes me wonder if I should be looking at a broader range of years.

SRJ, drop me a line with some particulars about your '99... I don't know if something like that would appease my "better half", but at this point I'm open to all options. I am the 4th owner of our '96 and, as I spend more time working on it, I feel that most of the problems we've experienced were due to lack of maintenance by previous owners. Perhaps the wife would could be lured by the same car in better shape, I don't know.

Again, thanks for the replies!

-l-

An 08 CDI Bluetec? They dropped the CDI name starting in 07.

If he paid $26K for an E320 Bluetec with 25K miles on the clock - he got an outstanding deal. Did he happen to have a trade-in? $26K seems low for an 08.

Dealers "move numbers around" when charging for cars on trade-in.

For example: I traded a 74 Cadillac Sedan DeVille in on a new 77 Chevrolet Corvette in 76. The dealer (owner of a small town Chevy dealer) gave me 'retail' for my Cadillac, and charged me the wholesale difference in dollars, for the new Corvette. When he saw the reaction on my face of the bona fide low ball difference number he was offering me, he instantly stated; "I'm not discounting the list price of the Corvette to you." Well, he sure was! He just didn't want word to get around that he was selling Corvettes at wholesale! I realized he was giving me an outstanding deal, because every other Chevy dealer wanted $2K+ MORE difference in dollars from me! He had bought (15) new Corvettes, all the same color, and all loaded-up with a grand or so of goodies more than the run-of-the-mill new Corvettes I'd seen the month I'd been shopping new ones. He had (9) new ones left when I happened upon his Chevy store to make a deal with cash in my pocket, and the title to my Cadillac on me.

I wouldn't be afraid of a newish Bluetec, since friends of mine bought the same exact car that I did (99 E300TD) new when I did, and their computer module went out at a warranty covered cost of over $2K. So, this is something that can and will happen to the old ones too.

Sounds like you are like me -- you can afford a Mercedes only because you can do most of your own work. I am fortunate in having a good local mechanic as well as a dealer who treats me like a human being. They take care of the things I can't do myself.

Although the later cars tend to need less maintenance (an industry-wide trend going back many years), when they do need work, you're unlikely to be able to do it yourself. The '96 is itself on the cusp of being unfixable but there's still a lot you can do at home. An '06 - '08 CDI or Bluetec would definitely be over the edge. My '96 has over 272,000 miles and is still in excellent condition. I vote that you keep it and let your wife buy the ricemobile of her choice.

An alternative would be to trade in the wife for one that likes older cars.

Jeremy

If you can afford it, get a 2010 - 2011 model with a warranty and get rid of it when the warranty expires... IF you can afford it (Insurance, payments, non warranty covered parts, etc).

Thank you, JimmyL, Jr. :D

This guy can sell ski parkas in Cuba. He gets nasty responses to lowball offers but sometimes he gets the deal. $26K doesn't include tax and license, shipping across the country or the MB extended warranty, but it is CPO. Same car would be $32K here. No trade.

Sixto
87 300D

Many of my sentiments mirror your's.

Many Mercedes-Benz dealer employees have an attitude that they are better than you, since they are affiliated with such an outstanding product, that you should lie down and open your wallet to them. Even though they are the ones waiting on you. Go figure...

I became a Mercedes-Benz diesel owner because of their economy and durability. Period. The other stuff that comes along with the ownership of a Mercedes-Benz is just icing on-the-cake. A LOT of icing in the case of the prestige factor that owning a Mercedes-Benz provides.


However, the root cause of me being a Mercedes-Benz diesel passenger car owner is because of the fact that my Mom and Dad started driving new diesel Mercedes-Benz' starting in 1969. They went on to purchase new ones in 1974 and 1977 as well. The seed was planted in the economy aspect that the Mercedes-Benz diesels deliver. I guess I'm a victim of having wise parents. That said, I made the mistake of buying a new Mercedes-Benz (my sig. car) the last time I bought one. Even though I can afford new, I won't make the mistake of throwing tens of thousands of dollars away needlessly, when a pre-owned 3 year old in-factory-warranty MB diesel with low miles can be had for 50% or less of what the car listed for.

If I were you, landev, since it sounds to me like you are on a budget, I would buy an 05 or 06 E320 CDI with less than 100K miles on it for a price in the high-teens. To me, that's where your value will lie for your next MB diesel car.

To find one on a nation scale; I would use cars.com and autotrader.com websites - setting up each with ALERT mode to e-mail you when new ones meeting your criteria pop-up.

Also, you can set-up an ALERT mode on Carmax.com's website for the same exact set of criteria.

These are (3) likely websites to find the used, late model MB diesel that you seek.

He got an outstanding deal - you hit it right on the head, $32K would be the best number give-or-take that model could be had for today. I know, because that is my max. target dollar for an 08 E320 Bluetec with low miles for myself.

I could learn a lot from him. Thanks for the tips, sixtwo!

I appreciate the input all, but I'm still left with the big question... does the majority of work that a '05+ diesel need to be referred to a dealer? I'm rather envious of you who have local mechanics willing to work on your cars. Where I live most mechanics give me the big sneer when I tell them I need help with a MB.

One of the more reputable local mechanics (I've taken other vehicles to for electrical work) once made the statement: "You can buy a better car, but you can't buy a more expensive one." He kind of ruffled my feathers with that remark. Personally, I am not a brand loyalist. I will buy whatever I feel to be the best car/motorcycle/tractor I can afford, regardless of the badge on the hood. I just happen to think that the diesel MB is one of the best rides out there.

In short, the only place locally (i.e. w/in a 120 mi. radius) that has the tools and know-how to work on my MB is the dealer in Spokane, Wa. While I have had great phone dealings with James in the parts department, any other dealings (service dept. questions) were just awful. The only experience I had that was worse was with the dealership in Tacoma, WA where I stood at the parts counter for a full 10 minutes after ringing the service bell before anyone showed. I was then sneered at when I asked for a dozen frame nuts that hold the belly plastic under the car. Walking out of that dealership, steaming with my $50 handful of nuts I swore I'd never go back to another dealership.

-l-

Or, you could do what I did and buy a VW TDI. I did this out of "protest" since M-B refuses to offer a lower-end diesel in the USA. I know all of the reasons but still refuse to buy a car that is "more car than I needed" for "more money than I wanted to spend" simply because it is all they sell. I think everyone who considers a new diesel model owes themselves an hour at the VW dealer to test drive a Golf or Jetta...you may just find yourself pleasantly surprised and save about half what you'd pay for an E-Class. I am not saying the cars are the same, what I am saying is they fill a market which Mercedes doesn't today. Something to consider, as far as I am concerned.

Before I drove a Jetta TDI I didn't consider it at all, but after I was sold. They even make a sportwagen TDI which I was thinking about.

One more thing...mine is a '10 and the new '11 new jettas are getting mixed reviews. You can still get '10s and still get a tax credit I believe, though it is half of what it was earlier this year (I got $1300 for buying my car).

Or you can just buy your wife a romantic dinner and convince her to keep the cars if they're not giving you guys problems... Doesn't look like you're in an urgent need of a newer car just now. :) I, for one, am not desperate to add to my debt a New Mercedes Monthly Payment, New Mercedes Insurance Payment and the constant and inevitable "What if somebody bumps my Pristine Brand New Mercedes with their door?" nagging thought.

I don't see why there's a push to have the guy buy a new anything. He's not wanting to spend that kind of money, any more than I do. We're looking for value at a price, not $859.00 a month payments. Ask me where I got that number from? From my sig. car's payment book of 60 installments @ 8.75% APR in 2000. The balance was $38K I wanted to buy the car on the spot 1,000 miles from home, and I only had $5K in my checkbook I was carrying, so put put down $4K and took out a loan of all things to buy it. I paid-off the car in 16 months, cash flowing it with income. I did not want to use savings when I could just cash flow it. $859.00 a month payments? That's insane for any car.

Nobody's pushing anyone to do anything...the OP asked for some advice and people responded...sounds like everyone here needs to just relax a little.

People have different reasons for buying new cars. Some like modern conveniences. Some try to maintain domestic tranquility, like the OP. Some don't want to spend every other weekend on their backs in the driveway.

Me, I always have something old and something new...I just like cars. Next year our C300 lease is up, so there will be a 2011 something coming...just don't know what yet.

Well, the pressure is soon on. The wife put the Mini on Craigslist and it sold 4 hours later. There have been multiple suggestions about this predicament, (albeit an self imposed predicament) but I'm in need of more info in order to make a decision that makes some kind of sense.

The suggestion to schmooze her with dinner and try to reason sounds logical... but that is from someone who obviously doesn't know my wife. She has 2 weaknesses... cars and diamonds. I am more likely to concede to the former rather than the latter. If I had the resources, I'd shower her with both... she's one of the best people I've met (who else can claim a wife insistent on your buying a BMW LT "because you've always wanted one"?) In short... I feel her car fetish keeps her happy and is something I can live with.

The recommendation of buying a Japanese ride won't cut it. She had a very nice Avalon a while back and that didn't seem to cut it. I must say, the Avalon was THE most comfortable car I've ever driven, but it handled like a tap-dancing pig and only got ~26 mpg (on a good day.) I have had 6 Toyotas and a Nissan in the past and, while they are a decent car, they have never gotten the handling down.

The bid for the VW is something I've already contemplated. I have owned 3 VWs and it seems that with each progressing year, their quality goes down. I know they make a very good diesel engine, but the rest of the car (at least in my experience) tends to be lacking in durability. The Audi I had seemed to follow suit.

At this point, I know when we both get home tonight, my wife will want to discuss what's next on the auto agenda. We are now down to basically one car (as our pickup is a gas hog and is only used to haul stuff and pull trailers, and the '84 300dt is too pristine for daily driving (especially in the winter).) In order to make an informed decision, I still have the same nagging question that needs to be answered... "Can a guy with a Star service manual and a fair assortment of tools be reasonably capable of fixing the majority of issues likely to crop up on, say, a 2005 or 2006 CDI?"

Thanks all for your time and input on this issue, it has really helped!

-l-

It would help to know what you are wanting to spend on a replacement car. If all I had was $20K or less, I'd buy a 2006 E320 CDI. If all I had to spend was $10K (give or take) I'd buy a '99 E300TD.

Probably not as easily as you would like without a Star Diagnostic Computer and a sizable bankroll. Someone mentioned that your '96 is just on the cusp of DIY maintainability... I'm afraid that I have to agree.

I too have owned a more recent VW (2001) and only let go of it because it had been totaled. My previous VW was a '72 beetle with terminal metal eating bacteria, leaking heads and electrical issues. But both were easy to keep running. Degrading quality? That would be hard for me to tell considering my experience.

The '99 E300 TurboDiesel I currently have is paid for, but in serious need of TLC. I'm knocking out one issues at a time as I can, but it's costly as you probably already know.

If looking at a newer MB, I would personally factor in an extra $3500/year for maintenance, as most must be done at an authorized service center now. Heck, they're not even putting fill tubes on the new (2009+) 7-speed ATs. There's no way (unless you buy $1500 in shop equipment) to check and change your AT fluid (must be done every 30k miles).

This is only my opinion, and I will probably get razzed for it; however, if I absolutely was given no option other than to buy new.... I think I would go Subaru for petrol and VW for diesel.

I spent twice that on my '99.... four years and 70k miles ago.

I spent almost four and a half times that on my '99.....11 years and 122K miles ago. Never again.

Well all,

I'm a bit discouraged about the future of MB vehicles. It seems, with the increasingly un-serviceability of their cars, the company is precluding all but the wealthy from being able to afford their vehicles.

As Dahmler has been in business for many years, I imagine they must know their market fairly well, but it seems to me that that if the trend continues toward making cars that are user un-serviceable the resale of the cars they are currently making can only be hurt. Who wants to purchase a used car, however nice, for a reasonable price only to find that the car's maintenance costs will far outpace the purchasing price?

I may not be seeing "the big picture" but it seems that in the not-too-distant future some of the most well made vehicles on the road will, due to simple economics, only have value as scrap metal. A real shame that...

Thanks all for your input on this matter.

-l-

Name a maker who cares about user serviceability after the sale.

Three points:

1. All new cars are very difficult to service yourself and all dealers are expensive. If you need/want a newer car, find an indy that can work on your car, put up with dealer prices, or find a brand that can be serviced locally.

2. The vast majority of people do not service their own cars. This forum is not a representative sample of benz owners, not even old benz owners. It costs most people at least $0.50 per mile to drive newer cars.

3. MB does not really care whether the third owner of a ten year old car can work on it themselves or not. They do enjoy some good PR by having their cars last a long time, but they don't make any money from the bottom of the food chain. They understand their market pretty well.

It's not just Mercedes... BMW has pretty hot diesels too, as unserviceable as the Millenium Falcon would be for me. Even a 2011 Toyota Corolla or Ford Focus would be pretty much left to the dealership to maintain. Old is the way of the DIY.

In short... Yes! Now, how do we fix this problem? How do we, the DIYers of the world encourage automotive manufacturers to change their engineering practices?

It's DIYers that drove manufacturers to make cars less serviceable.

DIY technology catches up. 10 years ago it was impractical to service a 140 at home. Now there's little you can't do yourself on an early 140. The equipment to manage late 140s isn't cheap but it's more affordable these days. You just have to keep learning.

Sixto
87 300D

I was advised by a Mercedes Tech a few years back not to purchase newer than 2002 if I still wanted to "tinker" with maintenance. Maybe upgrading your 1996 five years or so is an acceptable compromise? An SLK might be nice for the wife....

Well, after much gnashing of teeth, it seems we've reached a compromise. My wife just bought a 2010 Jetta TDI and I'm going to keep my '96 (and '84). Funny how each time talk of consolidation crops up, it tends to just mean she gets a new car.

Thanks NHDOC for the push on the TDI front. Though I'm not convinced about current VW reliability I figure that, since VOA picks up all repair and maintenance over the next 3 years (including towing) we don't have much to lose. They seem to be giving 2010s away, (fully loaded is just over $24K with 0% financing and still a $650 tax credit... so what's the catch? It's funny though... the dealership she bought the car from was trying to (and did) sell a 2010 (same options) with 11K miles to some guy from Canada for $26K... I imagine we're talking "major marketing ploy" here.

Thanks again all for your guidance in this matter... 'helps to have all the varied opinions.

I would say no keep it, newer Mercedes made cheap, breaks down all the time n it's not easy to fix

It is hard to beat the value of the Jetta...welcome to the "dark side".

I will advise that you strongly consider using a good fuel additive with each tank. I use Stanadyne or PS and have since the first tank. B5 will also suffice apparently. The only real issue with the new diesels is the high pressure fuel pumps which are lubricated by fuel. The fuel in the US meets minimum lubricity standards but is not as good as the stuff over in Europe so most of us with the newer VWs add some extra juice to keep the pumps happy.

If the HPFP gets roasted it is a major repair because you need to replace every component in the fuel system because it spreads metal flakes through the fuel system as it fails, so prevention is key. A small number of failures have been reported on the TDI board and it is something we all are watching closely. VW sometimes claims fuel contamination and tries to deny warranty coverage...in those case most owners collect from their comprehensive insurance and then the insurance companies will either go after the fuel suppliers or VW to get the money back.

Buying good quality fuel from name brand stations which sell high volumes is also a recommendation. And finally, if you or the wife should accidentally put gasoline in the tank DON'T RUN IT, that's another HPFP no-no. Other than the HPFP issues there's nothing lurking out there that I know of. Happy Motoring!

Thanks for the tip Marty. I've been fairly lax about PS addition with the E300... just when I think about it (every other tank or so.)

I haven't had much time to closely look at the TDI yet, (lots of gadgets on that car!) but will crawl around it a bit come the weekend.

Thanks much!

-l-