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#17
11-14-2010, 01:47 PM
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Oliver, I've got a lifetime of engineering experience, and that includes hydraulics, and I would not even consider opening an injection pump or injector in any circumstance except being at sea (literally) or in the wilderness (literally). In much the same way that a qualified and experienced surgeon will not even consider operating by the side of a road. Like the surgeon, should I be forced to do such a thing, it would be for one purpose only, to nurse the lump back to civilisation, and IMMEDIATELY take it in to surgery to be fixed properly. You get the benefit of a lifetime of expertise, at no cost ("do NOT run VO" or "do NOT open an injection pump") and you simply ignore it and start whining about how I'm being insulting. I do not OWE you a ****ing engineering apprenticeship, especially when you casually ignore free expert advice at will. I (and everyone else) WORKED long and hard for our knowledge and experience, you demonstrate NOTHING quite so much as your unwillingness to do anything except take the short cut from where you are to where you believe you have a right to be, and your innate belief that the only thing that stands in you way is arrogant bastards like me and some conspiracy by multinational companies to sell substandard products that you can buy tenth hand years down the line. The knowledge you CLAIM to want HAS to start with humility Olivier, you HAVE to start from the position that you know absolutely nothing, this is a universal truth in any field of study. Olivier, people like me love nothing more than passing on what we have learned, that is a fact, but it is a fact that we can and will only do that to an apprentice... the analogy here is a vet who has done his 20 years with the bullets flying around his ears, he isn't going to cut any slack to some guy who has a copy of the art of war and a bruce willis DVD who thinks he should be a general... 99% of your (vehicle) problems will disappear overnight if you listen to good advice, farm out IP and injectors and other items where appropriate to specialists, and run the car exclusively on pump diesel. "I can't afford it" is just tough ****. 
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#18
11-14-2010, 01:54 PM
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Those tiny holes have little relevence to the actual Fuel Injection phase....
Its the End Of Injection, where the DV retracts a specific volume of fuel, and these tiny restrictions prevent Standing-Waves of Pressure bouncing from DV to Injector and back again along the column of fuel in the HP pipe that could interfere with the closing of both the DV and the Injector itself.... High Pressure Diesel injection systems are actually Hydro Accoustic in their operation, thats why there are all these weird things like DV's and restrictions, in the HP circuit. Ive not heard of the Finns modding the DV holders, so I'm guessing there's not much to be gained by messing with them.... 
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http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...0TDnoplate.jpg Alastair AKA H.C.II South Wales, U.K. based member W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K, -Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog.  W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow, -Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....
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#19
11-14-2010, 01:56 PM
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I think that no one but Bosch themselves will really know why the made the Hole the size they did.
I do know from my Trade School days that the Delivery Valve on Fuel Injection Pumps (I am not speaking of the Hole) does more than you think. On the surface it looks like a 1 way valve but they most often have features on them that are designed to help smooth out the pressure waves created in the system. One of the biggies is when the Fuel Injector Nozzles closes. It sends a wave backwards to the Fuel Injection Pump. Because, you suddenly have the Fuel Flow come to an abrupt hault. The series of pressure waves that go on inside of the Fuel Injection Hard Lines actually erodes the inside of the lines and can cause them to fatigue and crack. Take note that the newer Engines with their longer Fuel Injection Hard Lines have problems with their Fuel Injection Hard Lines cracking and the older 617s seldom have that problem. I am speculating that the small hole in the Delivery Valve Holder has something to do with dampening pressure waves but do not know for sure. Also have you taken a look at the inside diameter of your Fuel Injection Hard Lines. If the Hole in the Hard Lines is not larger than the Hole in the Delivery Valve Holder what would be the point in making the Hole larger. Then on the other end; just how large is the hole in the Fuel Injector Nozzle. On a 617 the Hole in the Injector Nozzle is smaller than the Hole in the Fuel Injection Hard Lines and the Pintel of the Nozzle is partially blocking the hole all of the time. So the real restriction to flow is at the Injector spray Nozzle. For anyone who really wants to know about this sort of stuff I would recommend taking some classes or reading some books or internet stuff on the subject. Also when you look at the Holes in the Delivery Valve Holder that is only one part of a system.
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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
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#20
11-14-2010, 02:01 PM
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why are those hole soo small? Can they be enlarged? You just keep on going that I think I know better... Telling stories about a wet and bullets  If you like to share your knowledge (as you said), answer the "Why" and the "Can" above, this would be sharing and passing knowledge and would enlight me, stop ranting over what you think I know or not know as its not the questions. But you don't, you never answered the questions asked, therefore you don't know, or you don't share and you are then contradicting your own self doing so. Rant over 
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E300TD year 2000. RUSTY SOLDcost a fortune to maintain on the road  but run well on WVO Second Merc died due to corrosion ( NOT rust) How can mercedes get away with that for so long? Third lasted a month then went away... Fourth now... Corroded too...
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#21
11-14-2010, 02:10 PM
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Woaw!
Thank you to Alastair and Diesel911. Really interesting about the shock wave going back. Unfortunatly I did not look at the diameter of the inside hard pipe, but as you think it must be very similar as the hole. Its all an intriging and new thing for me. All the best. Olivier My reply above was before I read both of your comment, I start to get a much better understanding now. Still vague but at least some questions have been answered. Happy me. Thank you 
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E300TD year 2000. RUSTY SOLDcost a fortune to maintain on the road but run well on WVO Second Merc died due to corrosion ( NOT rust) How can mercedes get away with that for so long? Third lasted a month then went away... Fourth now... Corroded too...
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#22
11-14-2010, 02:10 PM
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Nice tirade! WHY are you being so Horrible...? Olivier was only asking a simple question. 'Whats the purpose of these restrictions and What would happen if they were opened up'?. Try telling the Finns that to 'mess with IP's' is pointless, and they will larf at you. They after all, regularly tune the om.606 to 500 BHP and these are often Daily Drivers! Olivier doesn't need a lecture on your expertise, no matter how you aquired it!--After all, this is an Internet Forum and ALL posts are Merely OPINIONS! Not everyone has a HUGE Unlimited Bank balance on which to draw when things go wrong, so taking the IP off and sending to a shop costing around 1000 pounds just ISNT an Option, and neither is running on Std. Diesel! (God forbid, I after 15 years 'veggin' ever have to resort to running Dirty Diesel from the likes of Shell and BP!) Trouble is, There is SO LITTLE Real and correct Info available from the likes of BOSCH as its all 'Proprietry Information' But lukely some of us have actually been on Manufacturers Courses specifically ON Diesel-fuel Injection, and have the course-notes to refer to....
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http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...0TDnoplate.jpg Alastair AKA H.C.II South Wales, U.K. based member W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K, -Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog. W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow, -Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....
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#23
11-14-2010, 02:22 PM
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I think I can outline more clearly the effects encountered at thye time of 'end-of-injection'
When pump spill-port opens, HP Line-Pressure suddenly falls. Forward motion of the fuel in the line suddenly stops. This causes a pressure-wave Back Down The Line From Injector to Pump and DV... Try This.... Go into your bathroom. Turn on your Bath Tap to full flow. As QUICKLY AS YOU CAN, Close the tap.... (If your plumbing is a mite old and cruddy like mine...) You'll hear a huge 'Knock' This is caused by the standing-wave caused by the abrupt flow stopping returning from the tap to the water supply-pipe to water-tank.... Same happens in the HP line.... This 'Knock' can cause valves to re-open and the injector to bounce, injecting a dribble that can cause smoke. The restriction is there to help minimise/stop this effect in combination with the DV itself....
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http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...0TDnoplate.jpg Alastair AKA H.C.II South Wales, U.K. based member W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K, -Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog. W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow, -Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....
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#24
11-14-2010, 02:31 PM
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Another Woaw for me!
Thank you, simple easy to understand. ""simple things amuzed simple minds..."" Who said that? I heard you  I have this with my boiler and the hot water, when I stop the heating of the hot water the bang is huge as the valve closed... The pressure in the injectors are bigger, smaller pipes but the shock waves must be quiete powerfull. I like it, interessting. All the best. Olivier
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E300TD year 2000. RUSTY SOLDcost a fortune to maintain on the road but run well on WVO Second Merc died due to corrosion ( NOT rust) How can mercedes get away with that for so long? Third lasted a month then went away... Fourth now... Corroded too...
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#25
11-14-2010, 03:03 PM
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I am not being horrible, I am actually being extremely patient with someone who I would normally refer to with expletives. #2 The question is only "simple" if you are utterly ignorant of all the fundamental theory, it is like asking the "simple" question "Why send rockets into orbit, why not just build a big tower?" when the answer requires an understanding of many disciplines... in other words it is a childish question. #3 I've actually driven a 470 bhp danish "finnish" merc, and they are anything BUT daily drivers, they spend more hours in the shop that on the roads.... I've also ridden a 400 bhp hayabusa, and they are anything BUT daily drivers, and from memory the guy behind the finnish pumps does injection systems for a living as a specialist. How you can draw a line from that to some guy running VO because he can't afford pump diesel is beyond me. In passing, your theories about hydrodynamic shock from the closing injector are wrong, a venturi or restriction always increases flow speed and correspondingly lowers pressure in the flow. The two are inextricably linked. There is a *huge* clue there as to the main purpose of the restriction in question.
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#26
11-14-2010, 03:06 PM
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#27
11-14-2010, 03:11 PM
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Or do I need to call a friend? Ask the audience? Cheers.
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E300TD year 2000. RUSTY SOLDcost a fortune to maintain on the road but run well on WVO Second Merc died due to corrosion ( NOT rust) How can mercedes get away with that for so long? Third lasted a month then went away... Fourth now... Corroded too...
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#28
11-14-2010, 03:22 PM
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the purpose of the delivery valve restriction is to bleed the pressure and therefore volume of fuel (diesel is anything BUT an incompressible fluid) present in the high pressure injection line back to baseline before the next injection stroke, so that the precise metered flow of fuel is delivered reliably every single injection event. By opening the pump (to the extent you have) you have already compromised this function.
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#29
11-14-2010, 03:29 PM
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Well, How eloquent of you! Thankfully my vocab. extends wider than expletives!
BTW, you are Wrong IMO and in BOSCH opinion! BOSCH Senior Technician taking the course I attended described the operation of the H.P. Circuit of Inline IP's--like PES 5M/W (as well as Rotary) and its as I stated. I just dug out my old notes-- Just For You-- to Confirm. Are you gonna say that BOSCH are wrong?? Yes, In NORMAL HYDRAULICS venturis and restrictions work as you say. Injection Systems are FAR from NORMAL HYDRAULICS and fluid does not perform in the extremes of pressure SUDDEN CHANGE found in H.P. Circuits, the same as in normal hydraulics! The effects found are Hydro Accoustic! Its Not my fault that some guys CANNOT STAND the fact that others can and do save a fortune running veggy successfully for years, with no ill effects. This is the basis of your antagonism I think.... So far as I can see, you have offered no opinion as to What these restrictions are for and what may happen if they are altered. Have a word with Jeemu. He has 605 in W124 currently making in excess of 500BHP--Its his Daily Driver. Muuris also has summit similar.... --These guys have built their vehicles--as you would say--in their sheds....
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http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...0TDnoplate.jpg Alastair AKA H.C.II South Wales, U.K. based member W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K, -Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog. W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow, -Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....
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#30
11-14-2010, 03:38 PM
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Thanks W124.
at least a proper reply. Opening the pump the way I did, did NOT compromised its functions at all. Its just the DV... I have done the DV less then a year ago and all was OK. I did them again today as I got some bother with the car ( don't start into the veg please as this is not it)and want to be sure to eliminate all "possible" bother. I am ticking all the boxes one after another before doing a pump job and remove it. I did the L/P too. Gosh, is that another "compromised" thing. No. I changed all Orings. I am waiting on a SOV. And today while I was doing the DV,cleaning it all properlly,I saw this teeny hole, then I wondered and asked. Wot a sin... That was too much for you, me the non elected asking, wondering, thinking, wot a sinner... It took you way too long to reply "properly"(Brackets on) and before this you preach like a priest, and no sinners should ask any question, you are the lord yourself... This is not a right attitude, no matter what you think you know. Rest in peace. Olivier
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E300TD year 2000. RUSTY SOLDcost a fortune to maintain on the road but run well on WVO Second Merc died due to corrosion ( NOT rust) How can mercedes get away with that for so long? Third lasted a month then went away... Fourth now... Corroded too...
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