Delivery valve body question - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

W124 E300D · #31 11-14-2010, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastair

Well, How eloquent of you! Thankfully my vocab. extends wider than expletives!

BTW, you are Wrong IMO and in BOSCH opinion!

BOSCH Senior Technician taking the course I attended described the operation of the H.P. Circuit of Inline IP's--like PES 5M/W (as well as Rotary) and its as I stated. I just dug out my old notes-- Just For You-- to Confirm.

Are you gonna say that BOSCH are wrong??

Yes, In NORMAL HYDRAULICS venturis and restrictions work as you say.

Injection Systems are FAR from NORMAL HYDRAULICS and fluid does not perform in the extremes of pressure SUDDEN CHANGE found in H.P. Circuits, the same as in normal hydraulics!

The effects found are Hydro Accoustic!

Its Not my fault that some guys CANNOT STAND the fact that others can and do save a fortune running veggy successfully for years, with no ill effects. This is the basis of your antagonism I think....

So far as I can see, you have offered no opinion as to What these restrictions are for and what may happen if they are altered.

Have a word with Jeemu. He has 605 in W124 currently making in excess of 500BHP--Its his Daily Driver. Muuris also has summit similar....
--These guys have built their vehicles--as you would say--in their sheds....

What the **** would I know?

guy with an agenda selling VO quoting some hearsay from an alleged Bosch tech...

see your bull**** and raise you the actual (US, seeing as this is a US site) patent by one Guenter Bofinger and Manfred Narr-Hess on behalf of Robert Bosch GmBH

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=5033506.PN.&OS=PN/5033506&RS=PN/5033506

The patent description (summary of the invention) says EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.

Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do.

I shan't hold my breath waiting for an apology.

INAPPROPRIATE
B.C.

W124 E300D · #32 11-14-2010, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olivier

Thanks W124.
at least a proper reply.
Opening the pump the way I did, did NOT compromised its functions at all. Its just the DV...

See, proved my point, waste of time talking to you.

You flatly will not ****ing listen.

INAPPROPRIATE
B.C.

scottmcphee · #33 11-14-2010, 03:51 PM

I get the idea of acoustic balance in chambers, resonant frequencies, standing waves, etc. This reminds me of tuning a 2-stroke motorcycle exhaust system. The very nature of that system needed restriction on the aft side of an expansion chamber to effectively find a balance whereby the exhaust system worked like a pump, using the shock wave to evacuate exhaust from the cylinder at the right moment. All very carefully timed. Found in my case by trial and error. If you don't tune this right you pull out too much of the next cycle's atomized mix... and less power. Tune it right and whop! you get a kick a in the pants (in the "power band") and that little engine just "grew" three times bigger, so it seemed. Back pressure can be a good thing. I can easily see how this translates to fluids echoing around in a hard pipes. What I can't see is how negative peer pressure helps forums like this.

Olivier · #34 11-14-2010, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W124 E300D

See, proved my point, waste of time talking to you.

You flatly will not ****ing listen.

Have a mint

Olivier · #35 11-14-2010, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottmcphee

I get the idea of acoustic balance in chambers, resonant frequencies, standing waves, etc. This reminds me of tuning a 2-stroke motorcycle exhaust system. The very nature of that system needed restriction on the aft side of an expansion chamber to effectively find a balance whereby the exhaust system worked like a pump, using the shock wave to evacuate exhaust from the cylinder at the right moment. All very carefully timed. Found in my case by trial and error. If you don't tune this right you pull out too much of the next cycle's atomized mix... and less power. Tune it right and whop! you get a kick a in the pants (in the "power band") and that little engine just "grew" three times bigger, so it seemed. Back pressure can be a good thing. I can easily see how this translates to fluids echoing around in a hard pipes. What I can't see is how negative peer pressure helps forums like this.

Interesting too, I had an Italjet dragster 180 once, wot a mighty beast for its size, I was going faster at the light then tsome 750CC

The exhaust was modified, it was not just a simple tube, it was all weded in shape. T'was a scorpio I think?
Cheers.

Alastair · #36 11-14-2010, 04:00 PM

Well, IF you care to actually READ that patent, you'll Clearly SEE that this is an updated DV with two collars, and NOT the Single collar type as in Olivier's pump!

--If you then read the patent that this one quotes, it will describe the issues with Standing-Waves causing injector bounce and dribbling!

Here--

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

The invention relates to a delivery valve comprising a valve seat and a spring-biased closing member having a return-flow collar and a control collar. In such a delivery valve known from German Auslegesschrift 1,236,863, the return-flow collar is separated by an annular groove from the collar which has at least one recess, in the present case two. This recess is designed as a ground portion and remains within the passage bore in every position of the closing member of the delivery valve. The closing member has a conical sealing face at the end located on the same side as the pump working space and, on the same side as the spring space, a fixed stop, against which it abuts during each of its opening strokes when the compression spring used is of a very soft type. The recess which is provided on the closing member and which thus always has a constant cross-sectional area is designed as a throttle cross-sectional area. The object of this throttle cross-sectional area is to move the delivery-valve closing member into its closing position more quickly at the end of injection, after the closing of the injection nozzle, since the pressure waves reflected in the delivery conduit impinge on the throttle cross-sectional creating, a resistance which has the effect of a closing force acting on the closing member in addition to the compression spring. Because of the different feed rates or feed speeds of the fuel through the delivery valve or the feed line during idling, on the one hand, and under full load at high engine speed, on the other hand, the effect of the throttle on the closing movement of the closing member decreases towards idling, since the pressure wave is relatively weak, that is to say the throttle cross-sectional area provides a lower resistance to this pressure wave and more fuel can flow off through the throttle per unit of time. The closing member is closed correspondingly more slowly, and therefore a larger proportion of the delivery conduit volume is filled through the closing valve with fuel from the pump working space during idling than under full or partial load, so that the pressure reduction in the delivery conduit varies from a minimum amount during idling to a maximum amount under full load.

Such a delivery valve thus serves for controlling the residual pressure in the delivery

Also interesting to note the reference to Pressure wave, thus Proving my point that the phenomenons found in the DV/HP line/Injector is Hydro Accoustic....

Sorry, nothing to appologise for! The quoted Patent is for a new type of DV and NOT the one you'll find in your 300d or in my 300TD either, Maybe you'll find one in a VP44 pumped Ford or Vauxhall, but Not in an M.B!

QED!

W124 E300D · #37 11-14-2010, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olivier

Have a mint

No thanks, I'll content myself with a 100% reliable diesel 124....

Olivier · #38 11-14-2010, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olivier

Have a mint

Quote:

Originally Posted by W124 E300D

No thanks, I'll content myself with a 100% reliable diesel 124....

You chew on diesel

W124 E300D · #39 11-14-2010, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastair

Well, IF you care to actually READ that patent, you'll Clearly SEE that this is an updated DV with two collars, and NOT the Single collar type as in Olivier's pump!

--If you then read the patent that this one quotes, it will describe the issues with Standing-Waves causing injector bounce and dribbling!

Here--

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

The invention relates to a delivery valve comprising a valve seat and a spring-biased closing member having a return-flow collar and a control collar. In such a delivery valve known from German Auslegesschrift 1,236,863, the return-flow collar is separated by an annular groove from the collar which has at least one recess, in the present case two. This recess is designed as a ground portion and remains within the passage bore in every position of the closing member of the delivery valve. The closing member has a conical sealing face at the end located on the same side as the pump working space and, on the same side as the spring space, a fixed stop, against which it abuts during each of its opening strokes when the compression spring used is of a very soft type. The recess which is provided on the closing member and which thus always has a constant cross-sectional area is designed as a throttle cross-sectional area. The object of this throttle cross-sectional area is to move the delivery-valve closing member into its closing position more quickly at the end of injection, after the closing of the injection nozzle, since the pressure waves reflected in the delivery conduit impinge on the throttle cross-sectional creating, a resistance which has the effect of a closing force acting on the closing member in addition to the compression spring. Because of the different feed rates or feed speeds of the fuel through the delivery valve or the feed line during idling, on the one hand, and under full load at high engine speed, on the other hand, the effect of the throttle on the closing movement of the closing member decreases towards idling, since the pressure wave is relatively weak, that is to say the throttle cross-sectional area provides a lower resistance to this pressure wave and more fuel can flow off through the throttle per unit of time. The closing member is closed correspondingly more slowly, and therefore a larger proportion of the delivery conduit volume is filled through the closing valve with fuel from the pump working space during idling than under full or partial load, so that the pressure reduction in the delivery conduit varies from a minimum amount during idling to a maximum amount under full load.

Such a delivery valve thus serves for controlling the residual pressure in the delivery

Also interesting to note the reference to Pressure wave, thus Proving my point that the phenomenons found in the DV/HP line/Injector is Hydro Accoustic....

Sorry, nothing to appologise for! The quoted Patent is for a new type of DV and NOT the one you'll find in your 300d or in my 300TD either, Maybe you'll find one in a VP44 pumped Ford or Vauxhall, but Not in an M.B!

QED!

Alistair, you aren't smart enough to understand the patent or read english apparently.

The original patent was from 1958

Annular grooves / recesses are NOT discrete parts.

INAPPROPRIATE
B.C.

Alastair · #40 11-14-2010, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W124 E300D

Alistair, you aren't smart enough to understand the patent or read english apparently.

The original patent was from 1958

Annular grooves / recesses are NOT discrete parts.

1958, Hmm a Great Year....

Was a few years Later the great OM.61x series was designed--Out of which your Ally Head derivative was modeled....

Your patent was from 1991--I note, AFTER your engine was designed, In fact it had been in production for some years......

Of course, Grooves and recesses are Not discrete parts, They are Parts OF THE SAME ITEM!
Doh....

And, Your POINT IS?

BTW, Ive NEVER sold VO!

Olivier · #41 11-14-2010, 04:17 PM

Its getting a wee out of control now, before we start calling each others names I suggest we all have a mint, or a drip of diesel, to everyone's preferences...
Now I was just asking a simple question, can we keep on going with this question or can this topic be over as there is no point keeping it open the way it goes?
Cheers.
Olivier

Diesel911 · #42 11-14-2010, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W124 E300D

Bull****.

It is true that the Shock Wave/s can re-open the Injector Nozzle.
The problem with Shock Wave/s is that as the Engine speed changes the Shock Wave/s are happen and different times.

The last Shock Wave can run into the newer one or the old and new Shock Wave can even end up going the same direction.

Just like a wave of Water in a container; it goes from one side of the container and then goes back the way it came and continues until the energy is dissipated. If there is another Wave coming behind it can either collide with that wave or could end up adding to the energy of the new Wave.

In any event Bosch would try to engineer things so that it would have a minimum of undesirable features.
So I am going to go back to my System idea. If you change one part of a system it could have an effect on another part. So enlarging a hole may do nothing at all, may harm something right not or it may take time before it harms something.

Since the newer Diesels have some record of cracking their Fuel Injection Hard Lines I suspect there is some problem within the System.
One member commented that the Replacement Fuel Injection Hard Line was thicker than the originals. So it seems that they are trying to fix that issue by making the Hard Lines thicker.

Alastair · #43 11-15-2010, 07:27 AM

Yes, The whole high-pressure circuit is very carefully designed. --even though it all Looks like just a valve and bit of pipe!

Change 1 part and it may turn out strange effects are encountered. Even a HP Pipe that is a slightly different length will prolly upset things.

Not sure about the thickness, but would have thought this also would have upset things too, as a thicker pipe will not expand to the same extent as an original thin pipe..
--Then again, perhaps the inner bore is different to account for this....
--I dunno on that one...

Strange 'laws' apply to the H.P. circuit it seems

jt20 · #44 11-15-2010, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olivier

Hello,
Inside the DV body there is a little restrictor that make the hole teeny.
What is the purpose of this?
Would removing it increase the flow?
Or should be "Do not Remove" at all...
Thank you.
Olivier

here's a good answer:

Quote:

The return-flow restriction can be used in addition to the constantvolume
valve. The reverse pressure waves which are generated
when the injection nozzle closes can cause wear and cavitation
in the delivery-valve's high-pressure chamber. This can be reduced
or even prevented completely by the damping effect of the returnflow
restriction which is located in the upper section of the
delivery-valve holder, in other words between the constantvolume
valve and the nozzle. There is a narrow restriction passage
in the valve body which on the one hand provides the required
throttling effect and on the other for the most part prevents
pressure-wave reflection. The valve opens in the delivery direction
and there is no resriction or throttling effect. A plate is used as
the valve body for pressures up to 800 bar, and for higher pressures
a guided cone.

...see your bull and raise you the actual answer!

whunter · #45 11-15-2010, 06:32 PM

New injection pump
MB# 606 070 06 01
Price: $ 5,120.00 USD..

Diesel Injection:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=142405