1984 300D Turbo, Timing chain Replacement. 178xxx miles.
First and foremost, thank you for taking the time to view my post. I know there are plenty of threads concerning timing and timing chains but I believe mine is different. Below is a detailed list of the operations performed in my timing chain replacement procedure, (that went horribly sour!).

1. Cut old chain pins, attached new chain and rolled in, and joined new chain.
2. Rotated crank shaft one revolution and checked cam timing. Not knowing I needed to go one more crack shaft revolution I thought cam timing was off 180°.
3. Took cam sprocket off, moved cam to align cam mark. During this, the chain slack jumped teeth in engine case. Set sprocket and rotated engine by hand only to find valve inference.
4. Connected old chain to new, keeping both tight, rolled old chain back in. During this, we kept tight tension and believe we felt the chain unjam. Aligned cam timing mark to TDC.
5. Once old chain was in, reconnected new chain to old, and rolled out old, keeping tension. Joined new chain ends, TDC and cam aligned.
6. Rotated cam once, and marks were aligned (2mm off), no valve interference.
7. Installed tensioner, thermostat, adjusted valves, installed valve cover and new gasket, connected everything, no start.
8. Removed injection pump, aligned teeth to mark and installed at 25° BTDC on exhaust stroke (WRONG), vented IP, bled injector lines, no start. FSM says 24° ± 1°
9. Installed new hand primer pump.
10. Removed injection pump, aligned teeth to mark and installed at 25° BTDC on compression stroke (CORRECT), no start. (opened oil filler cap to ensure compression stroke.)
10a. Removed glow plugs and cranked to ensure diesel to cylinders, sprayed diesel out of the holes.
11. Added 5 gallon of diesel to the tank, no start.

At point 11, with more that three days of failure I conceded the car to Stinehardt. Which boasts, "John Stine, owner and operator, has been repairing luxury vehicles for over 30 years and is a Master Certified Technician with Mercedes."

At the $500 dollar mark, John called and said it may one of two things; the Timing device may not be sprung anymore, or operating correctly. Or the IP is off time. I said go for it and figure it out.

TODATE: $1000 in investigation, new starter (said it cranked to slow (cranked fine before I replaced the timing chain)), IP removal/timing. The Secretary called said it needs a new Injection Pump. (I'm thinking he meant timing device.) Nevertheless, I asked if John could call and explain, he hasn't and it's been over a week.

Any advice is appreciated grandly!!

Nick

Hmmm my first bit of advice would be not to pay anything until the engine is running.

Second bit of advice would be to resolve the emotional conflict problem with this chap John as quickly as possible.

Third bit of advice would be to check for compression - do a simple check by turning the motor by hand and feeling for air coming out of a glow plug hole. You should be able to tell whether the timing is approximately correct on the compression stroke on cylinder one quite easily...

Fourth bit of advice:- The costs are likely to spiral out of control if you replace every part on the car!

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

So, Engine ran reasonably Before Chain Replacement...?

Then it wouldnt start After chain install, because the timing was messed up...?

Timing Corrected, and still no start...?

Heater-Plugs Working...? (Old Cold engine will be a bugger to start without, And darned near Impossible if there's a little air in the fuel-system to boot!)

All Air bled out of fuel-system...? --It may take some fair amount of cranking to get all the air out of the high-pressure lines, and After you've pumped the hand-primer to flush ALL the air out of the pump gallery--Takes a Good few mins of pumping....

Personally, I VERY much doubt it will be the I.P. OR The Timing-Device, these things just Don't fail like that...
(Never heard of a timing-device fail personally!)

Replacement Starter--Well I guess the extra strain its had lately could have killed the original--But you reckon it cranked fine when you took the car over to this guy...?

A Grand to remove and re-install the same (Yours) IP is a Rip Big-Time,--Or does this include the exchange-starter too?--PITA to change Starter in W123 300D

--Takes only half-hour to remove and replace the I.P, Whats his labour-rate, 2K an Hour!

Personally, IMO, Pull the car from him ASAP, (Minimise the costs thus attained) and ask local members to help, Sure to be someone fairly near that can help you out....

__________________
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Alastair AKA H.C.II South Wales, U.K. based member

W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K,
-Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog.

W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow,
-Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....

Are you saying that this guy has charged you $1k just to look your car over?

__________________
1987 300SDL 167k
1992 Volvo 740 140k
1990 Volvo 740 250k
1989 Volvo 240 269k

Anyone want to trade an old Volvo for an '87 300sdl?

My first though is at 178,000 miles did the Timing Chain need to be changed?

The next thought is that even if the new Chain jumped a tooth that could have been corrected; and as was done the Fuel Injection Pump re-timed.

If the proper bleeding of Air out of the Fuel Supply System and the Fuel Injection System was done and it would not start; the Camshaft Timing should have been re-checked (by lining up the timing marks behind the Camshaft Gear and the Camshaft Bearing Tower and looking at the degrees the Pointer points to on the Crank Damper).

If the Camshaft Timing was OK the Valve Adjustment should be rechecked.

If those 2 items are OK the Fuel Injection Pump Timing should again be checked.

After those are done it is back to bleeding the Air out of the system.

The above is mostly having patience, doing things slowly and methodically.

If the chain was changed just to be changing the Chain this is a good example of the mess that can happen from doing that.

I would have your car towed home before it cost you more money and just take your time and figure out what is wrong.

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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

I missed something.
You always have to be careful of Mechanics that are what I call "Parts Replacers"; meaning that the trouble shoot by replacing parts. They replace a Part and it does not solve the problem and tell you words to the effect "well it needed to be changed any way; it was old".

It also could be that they replaced the Starter because the damaged the old one Cranking the Engine trying to start it.

I do not know what could be done about the $1000 charge. If your Car had rust issues like mine does I would be tempted to tell them I was not going to pay and they could have the Car (I would be bluffing to try to get some leverage to negotiate). They would not likely want do keep a Car that they apparently cannot fix and would be unable to recover their money from.

Don't let them put the new Fuel Injection Pump on or the cost is going to be higher than another used Mercedes would cost.

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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

OMG, you could find & have an engine swapped for that much.

__________________
CC: NSA

All things are burning, know this and be released.

82 Benz 240 D, Kuan Yin
12 Ford Escape 4wd

You're four times

It's hard to

more likely to

concentrate on

have an accident

two things

when you're on

at the same time.

a cell phone.

www.kiva.org It's not like there's anything wrong with feeling good, is there?

Don't have much advice except to point out that in a thread last week Brian Carlton claimed on good authority that a loose chain will not jump teeth on either the bottom sprocket or the IP sprocket. The cam could be misstimed but this would be a result of the chain being misaligned with the cam sprocket teeth and not a problem anywhere else if Brian is correct.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I opted to replace the chain out of peace of mind. There was also about 8 degrees of stretch. It ran fine before the endeavor. It is in good condition, no rust, great leather, cracked dash and faded paint . I bought it for $1200, and over the last year have put about $1500 in parts, doing all the labor myself. Ie, rear axles, flex joints, vacuum related parts, complete front suspension rebuild, motor mounts, tires, etc.

I payed my car a visit today and the mechanic showed me the pump not spraying. He hooked an extra injector to the injection line and cranked it over. After bleeding it, no spray!

THE PRICE: The starter is included in the grand total. He tested the glow plugs, looked over my chain job and said it was right on the mark(s), adjusted the valves, pulled the IP and set it to the correct time, pulled the vacuum pump and looked over the timing device, tested vacuum components.

Good Quote 911, "If the chain was changed just to be changing the Chain this is a good example of the mess that can happen from doing that."

Lesson learned!

I know where a compete 300D 260K is sitting in a driveway. The owners are old folk and haven't driven it in 4+ years. About a year ago I contacted them and they were willing to sell it for $300. I was considering buying it, using the pump, then giving it to the mechanic for a reduction in price off the bill? I unfortunately don't have the space to keep an extra car and that's why I never bought it. Any suggestions on this thought?

I also see a IP on ebay for $60 and a timing device for $30. Weighing out the options.

Thank you gents.

Hmm....

Summit strange there....

All 5 'elements' of an IP dont fail at the same time, when they were working fine.

This suggests either the drive To the pump --Isnt driving, (Did you/he omit to re-fit the coupling-sleeve to the front-end of the pump during timing setting?)

Or the Stop-Diaphragm/lever is stuck in 'Stop' position....

OR the tech didnt bleed the thing out right and did not bleed the H.P. line of air to his test-injector...
Or just poor understanding on the part of the tech as to how these old systems work....

__________________
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Alastair AKA H.C.II South Wales, U.K. based member

W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K,
-Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog.

W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow,
-Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....

Reading horror stories like this I can do without. The now needing a new injection pump according to the mechanic blows me away. I hope he has not ruined the injection pump.

All I can really contribute. Is do not authorise an injection pump replacement. If the car was running reasonably well before the chain incident.

Either you are being systematically worked or the guy is less intelligent than even me. This is hard to believe for a reasonable minded working mechanic. So something is seriously wrong. setting up the timing on a single cam engine with no balance shafts etc is pretty straightforward.

If there is no output from the injection pump. Removing the lift pump will let you see if the cam is turning in the injection pump. If it is not turning there will be no output from the elements of course. There then is something out of whack with the timing wheel coupling.

The above in red is a good point.
If he has an MW Fuel Injection Pump one of the Deliver Valve holders could be Pulled and the Delivery Valve removed. When you turn the Engine you should be able to see the Plunger go up and down (do not do this on an M Pump).

Another way, although I do not see how people see down there would be to pull the Plug where the Fuel Injection Pump Locking Pin is supposed to go and see if you can see movement through that hole as you rotate the Engine.

I think as long as the Shop has the Car the problem is not going to get solved until they have Milked the job enough. Or the issue is simply that lack enough Diesel knowlege to trouble shoot it.

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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

Nick,
Welcome to the forum.
You have been getting some very good advice.
Most Mercedes 'specialists' know little about diesels.
I dont believe you have an IP problem as such except you now dont know what this bozo has done.
The cranked too slowly is BS. I have had flat batteries & the motor barely rotates through compression & still starts.
I dont know how to get you out of the mess but at the moment you are paying for his next holiday.
If it was me, I would have attempted a tow start long ago. That generally gets them going. After it has run, then see if it starts.
Good luck !!

__________________
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving

Get your car out of there ASAP.

This mechanic is either incompetent or a liar.

Either way, get your car back before more 'mysterious' problems show up.

Even if you have to tow it out of there.

__________________
1987 300SDL 167k
1992 Volvo 740 140k
1990 Volvo 740 250k
1989 Volvo 240 269k

Anyone want to trade an old Volvo for an '87 300sdl?