HELP Major malfunction - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

benmack1 · #31 03-27-2011, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Same thing happened last fall to my '84 Euro 300TD - NA 617, except 11 of the balls were actually caught in the oil-pump pickup, but prevented from doing any damage by the screen. My engine has a removeable lower pan, so I was able to pull and clean the oil-pump screen. Fished round the timing-chain cavity from below and above with a magnet for awhile, and checked all round the camshaft-gear area and never found ball # 12. It may be lodged harmlessly in some nook somewhere, or hopefully, as someone suggested, it came out when I drained the oil. My pump drive-cam had what looked like significant scratch-marks, but nothing I could feel or snag with my fingernail. Since I put in the new pump, it's gone over 1000 miles, including much highway driving, with no problems.
The replacemant Pierburg pump had a steel bearing-cage - not plastic like the original.
Good luck with yours (and wish me luck too!).

Happy Motoring, Mark

Thanks Mark, that sounds dead on for my experience thus far. I know what you mean about lodging around the pump intake. I have found most of the 11 around that pump intake. I have a side panel on the pan that I am using rather than the whole pan off. It is great that I can at least get in there, but it is difficult to get underneath to see if #12 is in that pump intake. If I had to bet, I'd say it is there, but who knows. I haven't thought about taking the screen off and am not even sure if it comes off on mine??? There isn't much room between the bottom of the pump tube and the pan. Maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch, just guessing from feeling around blindly up in there.

Mark DiSilvestro · #32 03-27-2011, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benmack1

Thanks Mark, that sounds dead on for my experience thus far. I know what you mean about lodging around the pump intake. I have found most of the 11 around that pump intake. I have a side panel on the pan that I am using rather than the whole pan off. It is great that I can at least get in there, but it is difficult to get underneath to see if #12 is in that pump intake. If I had to bet, I'd say it is there, but who knows. I haven't thought about taking the screen off and am not even sure if it comes off on mine??? There isn't much room between the bottom of the pump tube and the pan. Maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch, just guessing from feeling around blindly up in there.

If your pump pickup is like mine, there's a cavity between the pickup opening and the screen where the last ball could be trapped. My failure happened at highway speed, near the end of a 200 mile trip, but I was suprised my pump had enough suction to pull the 11 steel balls up into the screen (though some of the balls had gotten chewed to a somewhat smaller size than original) You'll almost certainly need to drop your oil-pan if you want to search your pump-screen.

Happy Motoring, Mark

bustedbenz · #33 03-27-2011, 11:25 PM

The updated style pump is by no means a bullet proof replacement. I consider it practically as much of a liability as the original, just for different reasons. The original drops ball bearings down the timing cavity; fine. That could easily be a problem. But I had an updated style one on my 300SDL and assumed all was well, and it turned out that my failure (my thread is one of the ones in post #1) was caused by the entire vacuum plunger assembly thing just breaking off of the housing. Tore up the timing lobes, pump was obviously trash at that point... the new one certainly isn't bulletproof either. They've fixed one weakness but as far as I'm concerned the whole assembly is weakly constructed if it can break off the housing like that for no good reason.

benmack1 · #34 03-28-2011, 08:15 AM

Quote:

The updated style pump is by no means a bullet proof replacement. I consider it practically as much of a liability as the original, just for different reasons. The original drops ball bearings down the timing cavity; fine. That could easily be a problem. But I had an updated style one on my 300SDL and assumed all was well, and it turned out that my failure (my thread is one of the ones in post #1) was caused by the entire vacuum plunger assembly thing just breaking off of the housing. Tore up the timing lobes, pump was obviously trash at that point... the new one certainly isn't bulletproof either. They've fixed one weakness but as far as I'm concerned the whole assembly is weakly constructed if it can break off the housing like that for no good reason.

Bustedbenz. I hear what you are saying. I have been reading about these things non-stop it seems since last week when mine failed. What a morass of an engineering accomplishment. I don't know much about motors in general but I am having trouble determining why a pump driven by the serp belt wouldn't have been a better deal or an electric pump. My god, something that when it fails has at least a reasonable chance of causing catastrophic engine problems seems insane. Not that the US automakers are any better but geez!

I ordered a new pump this morning. Should be good to go for repairs this coming weekend. New pump is $408. A little cheaper than fastlane but with tax I'll be about the same price. I went with the local place (A better wrench) simply because I can be sure I'll have it by the end of the week. Fastlane parts are great, don't get me wrong if the price wasn't equivalent I'd have ordered from here, but the last pulley i ordered for my E320 a couple weeks ago came from the west coast (I'm in North Carolina) and I ordered on a Sunday night and didn't get it until the next Monday (8 days). No biggie for filters etc, but when I am out of commission, it cost me an extra week of downtime as I don't have time to work on things during the week.

bustedbenz · #35 03-28-2011, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benmack1

Bustedbenz. I hear what you are saying. I have been reading about these things non-stop it seems since last week when mine failed. What a morass of an engineering accomplishment. I don't know much about motors in general but I am having trouble determining why a pump driven by the serp belt wouldn't have been a better deal or an electric pump. My god, something that when it fails has at least a reasonable chance of causing catastrophic engine problems seems insane. Not that the US automakers are any better but geez!

I think the other side of the argument is that the engine itself can't be made without SOME component that will cause a catastrophic failure. I mean, in theory, the camshaft or the crankshaft, if they break, will cause catastrophic engine failure. But try building a typical, current-technology combustion engine without either of those parts and you won't get very far. Some engineer just decided that this was an "integral" part. I think there's actually a very good reason they didn't use an "external" pump... the internal pump *GENERALLY* is the MOST immune to failure even though nothing is perfect. From a safety perspective, if the engine gets trashed but the person survives, it's well and good. Belts break and electrics burn up and fail, generally MANY more times than internal chain-driven components die. They figured that from a driver safety perspective (power brakes failing whilst driven by "little old ladies" or people with broken legs are a serious hazard) the internal pump was the least likely to fail, since hard parts usually last several hundred thousand miles whereas belt drives fail routinely and are open to 'external' hazards; same with electrics.

Quote:

I ordered a new pump this morning. Should be good to go for repairs this coming weekend. New pump is $408. A little cheaper than fastlane but with tax I'll be about the same price. I went with the local place (A better wrench) simply because I can be sure I'll have it by the end of the week. Fastlane parts are great, don't get me wrong if the price wasn't equivalent I'd have ordered from here, but the last pulley i ordered for my E320 a couple weeks ago came from the west coast (I'm in North Carolina) and I ordered on a Sunday night and didn't get it until the next Monday (8 days). No biggie for filters etc, but when I am out of commission, it cost me an extra week of downtime as I don't have time to work on things during the week.

I'm in NC as well, and 9 times out of 10, when I order from Fastlane, I can't get over how fast it got there. That 1 time out of 10 however, when the only warehouse that has the part is in the wrong place, though, it can be a delay. By and large, I order stuff that's kept in the "nearer" warehouses so I get it quickly. I'm not one of the "I'll kill you in your sleep if you buy parts anywhere else" crowd, but I will say simply that on more "routine" orders, Fastlane shipping is still pretty fast. It's just a die roll I guess. My last starter came from the local parts house as well. I try to sort of spread it around as much as I can. If there's an item that's $100 more here, I'll buy it elsewhere. If I'm feeling guilty for not keeping our local little no-name parts store in business, I'll buy something there. The other 80% of my orders come from here. I think it's fair.

Mark DiSilvestro · #36 03-28-2011, 02:03 PM

Well, my TD engine having survived the experience, I figure the new vacuum-pump may outlast the car.
And I got a replacement lever-bearing assy to upgrade the pump on my '82 240D.

I have ordered a few items from PeachParts-Fastlane. But, unlike vintage orphans like my Sunbeam or DKW, these diesels still are common and popular enough that many parts can often be obtained locally. Or I need the part ASAP. Like the replacemnt pump I had to find when the one on my wagon quit in Virginia Beach.

Happy Motoring, Mark

benmack1 · #37 03-28-2011, 02:54 PM

I should clarify something. I meant no criticism of fastlane delivery speed. They are great!! I've also spent my fair share there over the years

. That last example of the shipment taking a bit long was definitely the exception in my experience with them. My only point was I found a pump locally and for once it was actually less money by about 10 bucks so it seemed like a no brainer to have it tomorrow. I fully endorse buying from fastlane and I too do this 9 times out of 10. Great parts supplier.

engatwork · #38 03-28-2011, 04:59 PM

I recommend changing out the vacuum pump anytime after about 250k miles. I'd be leary about running it past around 300k.

Just out of curiosity what mileage were you at when it failed?

benmack1 · #39 03-28-2011, 05:37 PM

Quote:

engatwork: I recommend changing out the vacuum pump anytime after about 250k miles. I'd be leary about running it past around 300k.

Just out of curiosity what mileage were you at when it failed?

128K. Still has that new car smell about it

!

Mark DiSilvestro · #40 03-28-2011, 06:47 PM

My '84 Euro TD shows around 210K, but the speedometer was 'federalised' at some point, with an incorrect unit that reads 10% fast, so who knows!
The next day, Saturday,I temporarily installed a used pump I pulled from an '81 240D in the Virginia Beach Pick-N-Pull.
Then I had second thoughts and checked around the following Monday for a new pump.
As I recall, both Fastlane and the local Bap-Geon import-parts store wanted around $460, but a friend of a friend in Virginia Beach that runs a small local indie Mercedes repair shop there, got me a new Pierburg pump, same-day, for $293 (plus the small tip I gave him)

Happy Motoring, Mark

engatwork · #41 03-28-2011, 08:23 PM

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128K.

wow

babymog · #42 03-28-2011, 10:08 PM

On-line parts suppliers don't actually "stock" the majority of parts that they sell.

I believe that what happens is more a matter of having the parts that they sell available from distributors with which they have a business agreement, and usually a computer link to the distributors' parts inventory.

When that source doesn't produce a part, the better on-line sources (Fastlane et al) will go to their back-up sources, which usually include a dealer with which there is another distribution agreement, although this route is more expensive for both the retailer and the customer.

The differences between parts retailers in this dot-com world are many, but the most important to me are (in no particular order): Expertise/knowledge, the seller has to be able to find the correct part for my car(s); Available selection (no point in ordering if I can't get ALL of the parts I need); Delivery of parts (quick, and without "backordered" parts arriving later); and of course business ethic which ranges from the customer service, to return policy; and value (which is price, and the quality of the parts for that price).

I drove 100 miles to my nearest dealer today, they had none of the parts that I wanted in stock. If I have to order the parts anyway, I'll order on-line and get a break on price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark DiSilvestro

Well, my TD engine having survived the experience, I figure the new vacuum-pump may outlast the car.
And I got a replacement lever-bearing assy to upgrade the pump on my '82 240D.

I have ordered a few items from PeachParts-Fastlane. But, unlike vintage orphans like my Sunbeam or DKW, these diesels still are common and popular enough that many parts can often be obtained locally. Or I need the part ASAP. Like the replacemnt pump I had to find when the one on my wagon quit in Virginia Beach.

Happy Motoring, Mark

benmack1 · #43 04-02-2011, 01:47 PM

Last update for now:

I put it all back together this morning. Everything went smoothly. I have vacuum! Runs great, shifts great, brakes work and the key shuts it down now. Bearing #12 was never found. I guess time will tell if it ever raises it's head. Not much more I could do. A total tear down seems unwaranted at this point. If she blows up, it blows up so be it I guess. Also, I had a tick in the motor some some time. Surprise surprise, the tick is now gone with the new VP. I thought is was injector nailing, not the case it was the VP failing. I've been through enough since owning this car that if it goes up in smoke, I'm going to buy another one just like it. I am starting to know how the thing works and what to look out for!

Thanks to all who helped me diagnose and work through this. My total cost was just shy of $450. It would have been another 1K if I'd have taken in and frankly I think ball #12 still would be missing

GregMN · #44 04-02-2011, 02:11 PM

Watch your oil pressure gauge.

If ball #12 is up against the pick-up screen it will rattle around in there for 1000's of miles before it wears through the screen. Then in a split second your oil pump will go from 1000rpm to zero while the drive chain is still going 2800rpm.

Look at the photos on post #15 and #18 in this thread: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=265948&page=2

Hopefully #12 snuck out with the oil.

leathermang · #45 04-02-2011, 02:16 PM

Thinking about that #12 ball bearing wearing on the screen would reduce my enjoyment of driving that car...
How about letting the oil out...
and taking something sorta flexible... with a magnet on the end...and moving it around in the pan... perhaps getting lucky and pulling out that bearing ?
OR drop the lower pan and make sure it is out....