Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-30-2011, 04:43 PM
funola's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,245
Intermittent no starter crank

This just started a few weeks ago where I turn the key, the starter sometimes does not crank or just clicks. The starter is not the problem as I have gone over the whole unit before installing recently. I don't think it is the NSS either as cycling the gear sel does not help. If I try the key multiple times it starts 75% of the time. When that doesn't work, I can always get it to crank by jumping the terminals on the passenger wheel well. The suspect is the elec ignition switch. Afew questions:

1. Is the elec switch from an 83 240D w 7 terminals (pic below) same as an 83 300DT?

2. Does the switch come apart easily for cleaning? If so, can someone post link to a DIY?

TIA
[IMG][/IMG]

__________________
85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked

Last edited by funola; 03-30-2011 at 09:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-30-2011, 07:00 PM
dieseldiehard's Avatar
Dieseldiehard
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Bay Area No Calif.
Posts: 4,368
Quote:
Originally Posted by funola View Post
This just started a few weeks ago where I turn the key, the starter sometimes does not crank or just clicks. The starter is not the problem as I have gone over the whole unit before installing recently. I don't think it is the NSS either as cycling the gear sel does not help. If I try the key multiple times it starts 75% of the time. When that doesn't work, I can always get it to crank by jumping the terminals on the passenger wheel well. The suspect is the elec ignition switch. Afew questions:

1. Is the elec switch from an 83 240D w 7 terminals (pic below) same as an 83 300DT?

2. Does the switch come apart easily for cleaning? If so, can someone post link to a DIY?

TIA


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c397/funola/Photo_033011_004.jpg
OK, you've done most of the work to isolate the fact that the starter is OK, as evidenced by using the terminals on the fenderwell to actuate the solenoid.

Are you sure the NSS is OK? If it is bypassed you will be able to confirm what is the cause, as you know they are wired in series.

It sounds like your key switch (ignition sw if you want to call it that) and I doubt cleaning it would be a reliable fix. I can't tell if its the same as pictured however because there are a few different switches used on the W123 chassis.

I had the lockswitch go out recently on my '79 300TD and I paid someone to replace it! I just get a big pain in the neck working on stuff under the dash plus it is a tricky job.

anecdote:
My neutral sense switch decided to fail on Christmas eve in Midland Texas on a cold wintery day some years ago on a cross country trip
My Insurance Co advised a tow truck was 90 miles away and it would be happy to tow me to Ft. Worth (a long way from where I was!) and that was the nearest Mercedes dealer but they were already partially closed (most of the staff was let off at noon and it was nearly noon as I spoke to the agent then they said the next possible date for service was after the Holiday so necessity is the mother of invention!
I have a wire still attached to the solenoid that I can clip momentarily to the + terminal on the battery to start the engine and had to resort to that when the key switch decided to fail. I figure the next thing to go is that starter which I replaced 10 year ago (now THAT was a backbreaking job!).
DDH
__________________
'95 E320 Wagon my favorite road car. '99 E300D wolf in sheeps body, '87 300D Sportline suspension, '79 300TD w/ 617.952 engine at 367,750 and counting!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-30-2011, 11:11 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out in the Boonies of Hot, Dry, Dusty, Windy Nevada
Posts: 9,653
All you have to do it look it up in the buy parts tab.

The 1983 240 and 300 use the same assembly and part#.

Charlie
__________________
there were three HP ratings on the OM616...

1) Not much power
2) Even less power
3) Not nearly enough power!! 240D w/auto

Anyone that thinks a 240D is slow drives too fast.

80 240D Naturally Exasperated, 4-Spd 388k DD 150mph spedo 3:58 Diff

We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics. Funny how that works
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-30-2011, 11:39 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 18,350
About 3 or 4 years ago there was a thread describing how to clean the connections inside the ignition switch. The poster successfully solved a problem with the same symptoms as yours by cleaning the contacts. I believe the thread had pictures. It may take some searching to find the exact thread, but it's here.

Here's the thread. It doesn't have pictures.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=174746&highlight=cleaning+ignition+switch+contacts+starter&page=2
__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-13-2011, 10:14 AM
funola's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,245
The intermittent crank with key persists and I have not isolated the problem or replaced any parts yet (I hate replacing parts by trIal and error). The no crank with the key usually occurs with a hot engine, but it always starts if I jump the terminals on the fender block, or if I turn the key 5 or 6 times.

Anymore theories as to what the problem is? If it's the elec ign switch, why would it care if the engine is hot or not? I think I'm gonna wire in an analog ammeter to measure starter solenoid amperage.
__________________
85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-13-2011, 10:30 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 18,350
It would care because the starter is drawing more current when it's hot and the ignition circuit is not providing it. You can find pictures in her of people who have wired in a Ford starter solenoid near the battery to solve this problem. You can also find a thread with a description of cleaning the electrical contacts inside the ignition switch which also solved the problem.
__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-25-2011, 10:42 PM
funola's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,245
I think I've got it fixed finally! The starter no crank has been progressively getting worse and it failed to crank today even by jumping the terminal block. I tightened the ground strap, even added a battery jumper cable ground from battery negative to starter ground -neither helped. I pulled the air cleaner housing, battery and heat shield so I can take some measurements at the starter, felt the starter terminal nuts and noticed one of the 17 mm nuts was loose! I tightened it, hooked up the battery and she cranks!. I've shut down and re-started it hot about 6 times so far and it cranked every time with the key. Apparently, I didn't tighten the 17 mm nut on the solenoid (the terminal that is not hot) and with the heat /cool cycles it got progressively looser till it won't crank anymore.

I hope this is the end of this saga!
__________________
85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-26-2011, 11:47 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 3,978
Ive got a similar problem, my problem is whenever the weather is cold the car refuses to start or if I turn on the A/C the car refuses to start - BUT - if I hold the key to start for about 5 or 6 seconds - the starter will engage and start the engine..

weird I know - and its happening on a 1995 W124
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-26-2011, 08:17 PM
funola's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,245
Well it's not fixed! Started ok today, drove for an hour, shut it down and starts fine with engine hot. 10 minutes later no start again!. Took the black insulation off all the the wires on the terminal block and noted they were just crimped and not soldered and there was some corrosion. Took a wire brush and cleaned off the surface corrosion and soldered all the crimped wires. Put it all back and it starts fine. All the wires on the terminal block are white except a small violet wire (that goes to the glow plug relay), which does not agree with the wiring diagram I have which says the wires are red. Anyone have a diagram for an 83 300D which shows the terminal block connections?
I am not declaring success this time. I'm sure there's more. This thing is driving me nuts!
__________________
85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-27-2011, 12:46 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,281
Just go buy a rebuilt starter.
Things can go wrong slowly inside them so that you get the symptoms you describe.... I had the same thing....and saw the shop open up my old one.. which was probably original and 25 years old at the time.. the screws in the end had loosed and left the brush holder loose.... they suffer a lot of vibration over the years... you seem to have eliminated all the stuff exterior to the insides of the starter...
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-27-2011, 03:04 AM
DeliveryValve's Avatar
Chairman of my Benz
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Central California
Posts: 4,159
^^^ I agree. Been there and done that and most likely your starter is culprit.




.
__________________
1983 123.133 California
- GreaseCar Veg System


Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-27-2011, 10:16 AM
funola's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by leathermang View Post
Just go buy a rebuilt starter.
Things can go wrong slowly inside them so that you get the symptoms you describe.... I had the same thing....and saw the shop open up my old one.. which was probably original and 25 years old at the time.. the screws in the end had loosed and left the brush holder loose.... they suffer a lot of vibration over the years... you seem to have eliminated all the stuff exterior to the insides of the starter...
It may be a flakey starter solenoid. Until I have diagnosed it to be bad, I am not going to pull the starter. I want to make sure the wiring to the starter is in good order first. What makes this difficult is the lack of easy access to the starter wire terminals. Do you have a good starter circuit w/d for an 83 300D turbo? The w/d I have is not representative of my car, the color codes are wrong and the terminal block is not shown AFAICT.
__________________
85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-27-2011, 07:52 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,281
LOL, if you will get rid of that turbo your access will be much better... like my car... I pull the starter out straight up....me standing up clean and neat.....
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-28-2011, 05:48 AM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by leathermang View Post
LOL, if you will get rid of that turbo your access will be much better... like my car... I pull the starter out straight up....me standing up clean and neat.....
Although I wouldn't laugh out loud about it - not having a turbo sometimes has its advantages
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-20-2011, 05:27 PM
funola's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,245
My starting problem got much worse very quickly. If I shut it off when it's hot, it won't re-start. If I let it cool off overnight, it always starts in the morning. The jumper block no longer works. I've tried adding another ground strap in parallel to the existing one, and adding a negative battery cable. Neither helped. I was towed home twice in 2 consecutive days. That was enough. Pulled the starter, replaced it with the starter from my 240D. So far so good. Hope this is the end to my starter problems.

__________________
85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page