I talked to an old guy once who has/had been a front-end mech for 50years. He explained to me why it was a bad idea to lower vehicles and change the size of the tires. Basically you start messing with where the center of the tire is in relationship to the road. He used a blackboard and showed me how all the angles in caster/camber and toe came down to the pavement in relationship to the contact patch of the tire. Changing ride height, installing wider tires, etc. changes those relationships. While they can be "crutched" with some adjustments it is never gonna be "right". According to him the correct way to fix this is to have someone figure out what the new alignment specs should be based on the new angles created be the changes you make. Unfortunately there aren't many people that know how to do this stuff anymore. Your best bet would be to find a place that sets up roadrace cars 'cause they will know what you want. Incidentally I had three different alignment shops tell me my truck was "in spec" even though it wore the tires funny, pulled and acted weird. This old guy did my alignment manually, with chalk-marks, long rulers and the oldest equipment I have seen. That was 45K ago and the truck is just perfect, no issues. I think the old guy knew what he was talking about... RT

ps: When I say changing tire size I am refering to significant changes away from total height/width of the stock setup not using a low-profile tire and larger wheel that maintains the overall stock dimensions.

__________________
When all else fails, vote from the rooftops!
84' Mercedes Benz 300D Anthracite/black, 171K
03' Volkswagen Jetta TDI blue/black, 93K
93' Chevrolet C2500HD ExCab 6.5TD, Two-tone blue, 252K

My car was aligned by an artisan. A man of 55 years or more. He aligned my car and calculated it for new specs. I think he aligns cars better than a laser. People that use lasers dont put them on properly.

__________________
Current Stable:
1994 S500 v140, 210k miles, white with grey.

Former Mercedes in the Stable:
1983 300CD Turbo diesel 515k mi sold (rumor has it, that it has 750k miles on it now)
1984 300CD Turbo Diesel 150 k mi sold
1982 300D Turbo Diesel 225 sold
1987 300D Turbo Diesel 255k mi sold
1988 300 CE AMG Hammer 15k mi sold
1986 "300E" Amg Hammer 88k mi sold (it was really a 200, not even an E (124.020)
1992 500E 156k mi sold
etc.

Listen man, I dont understand why you have to insult a 19 year old, that you have no clue what kind of automotive experience I have had. I dont feel that it is necesary to prove to you how much I know about automobiles.

Think about Mercedes-Benz aquisition of AMG back in 1995. They put 17 inch wheels on a W202 C class sedan, and now on the SL55 AMG they come with the turbine 18 inch wheels, and AMG even makes 19 inch wheels for mercedes. Brabus and Renntech put on 20 inch wheels or bigger on S class sedans. I know that all of the mercedes tuners have engineers that work through all the engineering suspsension problems that might be encured at speeds over and under 200 mph. If lowering cars was a bad idea why is Eibach a hundred million dollar company.

Second of all, its not bad Karma, I dont think you know what that means. Another thing, there are regular people, and they are extraordinaire type people which keep technology on its physical limits. Older Engineers stick with something that works because they are stuck in their paradigm. When the paradigm shifts, the older engineers have to adapt or they get left behind.

I only posted so when people search for lowering springs they can find them.

I hope this clears up the confusion.

__________________
Current Stable:
1994 S500 v140, 210k miles, white with grey.

Former Mercedes in the Stable:
1983 300CD Turbo diesel 515k mi sold (rumor has it, that it has 750k miles on it now)
1984 300CD Turbo Diesel 150 k mi sold
1982 300D Turbo Diesel 225 sold
1987 300D Turbo Diesel 255k mi sold
1988 300 CE AMG Hammer 15k mi sold
1986 "300E" Amg Hammer 88k mi sold (it was really a 200, not even an E (124.020)
1992 500E 156k mi sold
etc.

OK, Austin... Your 20 years old right ? Did you take Automobile Theory in high school or college ?

Someone proposes an idea... and all the old guys come on and say " bad idea".... as if the fact that the car came from Mercedes a particular way was not hint enough by itself...

How about some respect for the Mercedes Engineers which produced the design in the first place ?

Back to Daimler Benz history, Carl Benz first drove his Patent Motorwagen in 1889, therefore DB was about 90 years old at the time of the 123 design.

Don't get your shorts in a bunch thinking you're getting put-upon because of your age. We're all just expressing an opinion.

My Indy told me if you make too many mods to the original design you're required to remove the stars...!

Happy Motoring

RBM

I do not know whether I am being chided for seeming to stretch the experience of MB ( or DB ) by 10 years or being supported for not having stretched it as much as Capt Kirk suggested .... but what I actually said was
"... remember, this company had 100 years experience with suspensions before it made your car...."
Part of my assumption was that most companies which started making automobiles were making something similar just prior to that... so I was including any Carriage work which they may have had prior to starting with internal compustion propelled vehicles...but I don't know for sure... just playing the odds...

When I was about 23 I worked in a Front End shop , first as a mechanic and then as service writer.... we also rearched the springs for trucks for the City of Austin....

I did not make a blanket statement that lowering cars was bad. I am saying that taking a car engineered for a certain height and thinking that backyard 'engineers' can second guess a company famous for it's automobiles ride and longevity... is stretching hope.

You cite larger wheels as if they were simply slapped onto existing suspensions... not likely....

You complain about me mentioning your age..... while implying that your front end guy was more trustworthy due to his 'advanced years' ...... How does that juxtaposition work ?

Having had fewer years to be exposed to stuff is something we all went through in order to get older..... taking offense when that is mentioned carries the risk of looking WAY younger emotionally than your actual age... your pm accusing me of " degrading " you by just mentioning your age was WAY over the top...

I learned from my friend that AMG made springs for w123 cars. This to me means it is ok to put on lowering springs on w123 cars because AMG knows what it is doing. I think I am going to find a set of AMG springs or buy my friends, so I can lower my car and get rid of that tire gap. Also, my car handles incrediblly with the 17 inch tires, with michelin pilot sports, which alone are 1200 dollars of tires, more than what my car is worth. I dont think there is any turn out there where stock 14s will have a chance against the abilities of my car. First of all, diesels are so slow that you have to take the turns fast so you dont have to try to get going yet.

17 inch wheels may put more stress on the bearings, but so what, they are cheap and easy to replace, assuming you know what you are doing. The fuel economy goes down a little, but I dont really care about that. But the ride, I just love it. I think the only reason mercedes put those ugly 14 inch bunt cake wheels on the cars is because they got a super discount. I had 16" lorinser wheels on my car also, but the chrome was peeling so I decided to trade them to my friend, then I got some 15" e430 copy wheels, and put them on, but then again, the ride wasnt that great, but when you put on some nice rubber like pilot sports, like what mercedes puts on all the V8 models now, over the 17s with the perfect offset like I have, the ride is fantastic, not too hard, not too soft. Just right.

AMG w123 cars, came with 16 inch wheels, and some that came with the 6.0 V8 had the same wheels as my car.

Maybe this is coming into the realm of personal preference. I guess some people like it harder than others.

__________________
Current Stable:
1994 S500 v140, 210k miles, white with grey.

Former Mercedes in the Stable:
1983 300CD Turbo diesel 515k mi sold (rumor has it, that it has 750k miles on it now)
1984 300CD Turbo Diesel 150 k mi sold
1982 300D Turbo Diesel 225 sold
1987 300D Turbo Diesel 255k mi sold
1988 300 CE AMG Hammer 15k mi sold
1986 "300E" Amg Hammer 88k mi sold (it was really a 200, not even an E (124.020)
1992 500E 156k mi sold
etc.

I originally started this post way back when because I got so excited that someone thought of actually designing lowering springs for these older cars. I don't think I really wanted them, I was just thrilled that we had options. I think lowering springs may not be for everyone, and they certainly would mess up the ride that MB intended the car to have. But that's ok to many who are willing to take a chance and get rid of the spec ride for something a little spicier. I won't be swapping the original springs for the lowering ones, but I sure and curious about them, and if I didn't rely on my diesel for everyday transportation, I'd probably give them a go just to satisfy my curiousity. I think Greg's right, I think Austin also has some points. To each their own right? Good luck if you try them out.

Alex

__________________
1983 300D (parked for four years)
2012 VW Sportwagen TDI Manual
2001 Miata SE
1962 Chevrolet Corvair Rampside

Most accident repair and front end shops are provided with information about ( at least ) four points under a car... which can be used on a flat surface to drop a plumb bob from... if you measure diagonally and compare the measurements then you find out whether the car frame has been knocked out of alignment... and if you measure to the floor you can compare to the factory specs as to whether the car is below what the factory considers proper in order to set the front end alignment.

omegabenz,
Just checked out your pics. I think your car looks fine the way it is. I didn't think I would care for the 17's on a 123 but the C pulls it off nicely. I wouldn't lower it though... RT

__________________
When all else fails, vote from the rooftops!
84' Mercedes Benz 300D Anthracite/black, 171K
03' Volkswagen Jetta TDI blue/black, 93K
93' Chevrolet C2500HD ExCab 6.5TD, Two-tone blue, 252K

Some of the stuff I have read on this thread is unreal. If Dieselhead and Omegabenz want to lower their 123 Mercedes 1" or so then so be it. It's not like these guys want to slam it to the ground. You have to remember that all car companies including Mercedes have to make compromises when they build cars. These 123's are built for world wide use where roads are horrible or even non existent. So the engineers of 20 years ago had to take all that into consideration when building these cars. I have seen 123's lowered and autocrossed and I have seen them raised and rallied. Some of those were actually factory race cars. I myself have considered putting on springs that are a bit lower on my 85 230TE. I have just been looking for a quality set. I appreciate that Omegabenz and Dieselhead have posted this information to the forum. That is what it is all about.

Chuck
1985 230TE 5 speed
BBS wheels
Yokohama Avid
The occasional non Mercedes part from Autozone! Oh My!

Attached Thumbnails

 

I like my Bundt Cake rims!!!

Too bad they dont come in a 17 inch format!!!

__________________
Nick
*****
2002 Sprinter 2500 140" High Roof :

"Some of the stuff I have read on this thread is unreal. If Dieselhead and Omegabenz want to lower their 123 Mercedes 1" or so then so be it."

Ever thought about this ?

If you put NEW springs on your car designed to lower the suspension " only an inch " ....they will be calculating from Original height....

Then you are going to BE HIGHER than what you are with 20 year old sagged springs...

And you will be out a lot of money and time.....

And you are not kidding anyone when you take the " one inch or so" tack to argue... NO ONE changes out springs with the idea of only changing the height ONE INCH because you can't even see an inch difference .

I am 17. Here I go..

Basically, nice sharp looking German guys in lab coats with black pants sat around a big table for a coupleof years, designing the W123. Then, guys in blue MB Logoed Jumpsuits put the cars together.

First off, its dumb to lower the car and put big tires on it just because the fact is...IT is a 130HP Turbodiesel..and weighs rouglhy 3800 pounds...performance on these cars, or performance modifications...are dumb.

Secondly, these set ups (suspension geomotry, so tires get best combination of wear and grip or whatever) were set up by guys with much more automotive genius than any of us have. Every part of the car was engineered by someone much smarter. Why change it?

Why did someone have to resurect this thread?

If you want help with your car or you want bling bling wheels let me know otherwise, im not writing anymore in this thread.

__________________
Current Stable:
1994 S500 v140, 210k miles, white with grey.

Former Mercedes in the Stable:
1983 300CD Turbo diesel 515k mi sold (rumor has it, that it has 750k miles on it now)
1984 300CD Turbo Diesel 150 k mi sold
1982 300D Turbo Diesel 225 sold
1987 300D Turbo Diesel 255k mi sold
1988 300 CE AMG Hammer 15k mi sold
1986 "300E" Amg Hammer 88k mi sold (it was really a 200, not even an E (124.020)
1992 500E 156k mi sold
etc.