Om617 cams and lifters, how many versions? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Dieselkraut23 · #1 09-29-2011, 01:59 AM

Ok so before I get into my whole story I just want to know one thing for sure.
How many different cam versions were there for the 617 and what were the differences and applications.

Now for another question......how many different lifter versions were there?

Dieselkraut23 · #2 09-29-2011, 03:24 AM

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/283398-om617-camshaft-advice-reqd.html

I found this but are the lifters the same?

No epc handy at the moment to see

Stretch · #3 09-29-2011, 03:28 AM

Errr the "for sure" bit is always a bit of a gray area with me!

But here goes. Here's what I've picked up.

There are OM617 turbo and non-turbo cams.

'Cos I've got a NON-turbo I'll start with the most relevant type!

According to the FSM chapter 05-220

You have camshafts with codes 02 and 00. I think that these are of cast steel that have then been shaped and then hardened.

However, since the FSM was written I know that there is also a code 11 because I bought that little bugger from the dealer.

See this thread (that Garret's already found!) =>

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/283398-om617-camshaft-advice-reqd.html

All of these codes are stamped into the back of the cam shaft - back of the engine - nearest end to the cabin.

You also have camshafts with codes 06, 08 and 10. These are specified as camshafts with a "chilled casting". This type of camshaft is more brittle than the other and if you dropped it, for example, you are more likely to find that it breaks in two...

More information about the non-turbo cams has been posted by jt20 in the link posted above - here it is for those who don't click:-

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt20

found this after some searching elsewhere:

"Did some more EPC research and I believe the following:-
there are only two main basic versions the Early and Late . There are also sub type's which I believe are the same basic profile and are interchangeable with others of the same basic type. Here is my understanding
Type 00 Initial "soft " cam Main Type "early"
Type 08 Replacement cam for Type 00 , hardened Main type "early" , only fitted to a few vehicles
Type 05 New "high Lift" profile introduction, main type "Late"
Type 11 Replacement cam for type 05, main type "Late"
The above goes for both turbo and non turbo as well a G applications"

so, it appears the #11 is a later casting and not mentioned in the outdated fsm.

Now for the turbo OM617a

You irritatingly have the same bloody codes stamped in the back of the camshaft.

00 for the cast steel non brittle type

and

05 and 08 for the brittle drop 'em and they die type...

Please note the lift on the turbo cam should be 10mm whilst the lift on the non turbo is 8mm

(Here's a thread showing some measurements I made of the non turbo profile http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/290268-om617-non-turbo-cam-profile-specs-piston-height-specs-etc.html)

EDIT -

I forgot the lifters / rockers...

Right according to Febi (eeeek! Those of us outside of the US have a hard time without EPC and need to be versatile!)

Non turbo - shares lots with OM616 and 615 motors

615 055 02 01 used for early engines - probably the 1979 / 1980 changes when the OM617 got more of the turbo developed improvements

616 050 03 33 for later engines - harder surface finish (according to Febi)

For the Turbo - Febi don't have a solution (see www.febi.com) so I'm guessing they are different again. Though I would guess that they didn't change as the next developments were the OM603!

Dieselkraut23 · #4 09-29-2011, 04:28 AM

The reason i ask is because in the morning im going to compare the cam and lifters from the following engines i have in stock

1982 Euro 617, 1978 616, 1985 turbo 617, 1980 617, 1979 turbo 617(300SD) and a 1978 617.

I have only one euro to compare.

I have a 1980 US model wagon motor that i received as a long block with NO lifters.

I put 1983 euro NA lifters in them from the blown motor being replaced.

I know there is a HP difference from 76-80 and 81-85 however that is not why i am checking the configuration.

Fuel mileage is horrible and temp climbs a little bit when going over 60mph, however no actual over heating problem.

Vales have been checked and rechecked 3 times. Injector configuration and ip pump swap out have no real impact.

Wouldnt it make sense that if the valves are not opening all the way fuel mileage would be bad and you would also see higher temps?

anyways just thought id add why im trying to figure these cams and lifters out.

Stretch · #5 09-29-2011, 04:45 AM

So you are saying you've put non turbo rockers / lifters into a turbo motor?

According to the info I posted above I think that'll be the trouble.

For the second link I posted above I was planning to measure actual valve motion - I can get round to doing that in the near(ish) future if that helps.

1960mog · #6 09-29-2011, 10:50 AM

There are no turbo/non turbo rockers.
There are only rockers before around 1980 (Chromed), and after 1980(Carbide faced).
The later go with the 05, 08, 11 chilled cast iron cams.

What is the difference is between the 05 and 11 cams?
I put both in my 617a and it doesn't make a difference in the world.

Stretch · #7 09-29-2011, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1960mog

There are no turbo/non turbo rockers.
There are only rockers before around 1980 (Chromed), and after 1980(Carbide faced).
The later go with the 05, 08, 11 chilled cast iron cams.

What is the difference is between the 05 and 11 cams?
I put both in my 617a and it doesn't make a difference in the world.

I thought the 05 08 and 11 ones weren't the chilled cast ones... well that's what is written in the FSM (I think!)

Also both Febi and Fastlane don't stock the turbo rockers...

...whereas they both stock the non turbo ones...

...doesn't that suggest that the turbo ones are different?

I'm not 100% sure but it seems strange that two places (that I know of) are consistent in showing that the turbo rockers are not available.

1960mog · #8 09-29-2011, 02:45 PM

The 05, 08 and 11 cams are the chilled cast iron ones.
I never found any difference between turbo and non turbo rockers, but I never checked the parts manual either.
According to Fastlane a 78 300SD takes rocker arms with
part # 615 055 02 01 early style, and 615 050 03 33 late style.
The same # pop up for a 82 240D.
I will consult the PM on the weekend.

Dieselkraut23 · #9 09-29-2011, 06:34 PM

Ok i have a non turbo us wagon motor that is SUPPOSE to be a 1980 model.

The motor it was replacing was a 1983 euro motor.

Both had sls heads.

When i got the replacement motor i had to use the 83 euro rockers.

The motor has the same euro pump.

The engine number for the motor i have now is: 617 912 12 080 974 and it has a number 05 cam.

The lifters i put in it when i got it were from 617 912 12 157 359

leathermang · #10 09-29-2011, 06:57 PM

Do those numbers on the end of the cam have anything to do with the ' constant ' used to figure the chain elongation ?

Dieselkraut23 · #11 09-30-2011, 12:40 AM

As far as i have been able to find out i actually have a turbo style cam and lifters now.

From talking to some older wiser experts they all say changing the cam will not effect fuel that much.

Q: On a non turbo what difference will it make if i set the valve lash to .35mm instead of.30mm?

They basically say im chasing a ghost.

So for the record i am now running a turbo model cam and lifters in a 79 om617 912 series motor.

I am playing with my ip timing for the billionth time now.

Stretch · #12 09-30-2011, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

Do those numbers on the end of the cam have anything to do with the ' constant ' used to figure the chain elongation ?

It would be pretty scary if it did. The turbo cam has a higher lift but I guess (and I can only guess as I don't have a turbo cam to measure) that the rise of both cams are similar around this initial lift area <= Is that well explained?

Here's what I measured for a non-turbo cam

Also please note you are not measuring a 2mm rise on the cam - but a 2mm deflection of the valve - after the cam has pushed down onto the rocker on to the valve stem...

...I'm planning to get round to making a measurement of this valve stem movement and comparing with the cam measurements I've already made.

Stretch · #13 09-30-2011, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dieselkraut23

As far as i have been able to find out i actually have a turbo style cam and lifters now.

From talking to some older wiser experts they all say changing the cam will not effect fuel that much.

Q: On a non turbo what difference will it make if i set the valve lash to .35mm instead of.30mm?

They basically say im chasing a ghost.

So for the record i am now running a turbo model cam and lifters in a 79 om617 912 series motor.

I am playing with my ip timing for the billionth time now.

Did you get access to EPC to check the part numbers for the turbo rockers?

How about pre-chambers and pistons - have you got the older type installed?

leathermang · #14 09-30-2011, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Army

It would be pretty scary if it did..

Why ?
Do you think I just imagined that question ?
*****
When you are measuring these cam lobes..
Can't you just cut a hole in sheet metal , split it at the hole , which was the size of the main cam shaft....and then put the two sides up against the side of a lobe and trace around it ?
Then measure on a table ?
If you make witness lines in two directions when drilling out the hole... you can use that to measure the height ... and you have the profile traced...

Stretch · #15 09-30-2011, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

Why ?
Do you think I just imagined that question ?
*****
When you are measuring these cam lobes..
Can't you just cut a hole in sheet metal , split it at the hole , which was the size of the main cam shaft....and then put the two sides up against the side of a lobe and trace around it ?
Then measure on a table ?
If you make witness lines in two directions when drilling out the hole... you can use that to measure the height ... and you have the profile traced...

No not easily partly 'cos you've got the camshaft bearing bits in the way - it would be a real pain trying to get metal to reach up against the side of a cam lobe - and partly because the tips of the lobe are narrower than they are on the shaft. They taper...

I'll stick with the tried and tested line up the teeth on a cog and measure with a DTI method I used last year.

As for the first comment - did you imagine the question or have you read something I haven't somewhere? I did the 2mm lift method as per the FSM to check if my new timing chain was good - paranoid eh? - and it was at (drum roll please) zero degrees.