Hey guys,

I'm trying to ensure my injector pump timing is accurate. I removed the #1 injector line and removed the spring and valve looking piece inside. Went through a complete combustion cycle after priming the system and did not see any fuel coming out of the injector port#1....:/ what am I doing wrong? In the book I have it says to rotate the motor until you get close to 24 degrees timing and look for the fuel pooling up at the port. After the degree of timing is found, then rotate the pump in or out based on timing findings.

Can I get some advice? I may have to double check my valve adjustment I did also, my engine is shaking a little more than it used to now and I am trying to ensure everything is in spec before I take the valve cover off again.

Thanks in advance,

Jimmy

if all else fails i will remove the valve cover and check the valve clearences and see how far if any my timing chain is able to lift off the sprocket. the book i have says if its anything near 4" its time to replace. the book also says that the timing chain could be part of the engine running rough....

That is an understatement.

Can we get a little more background on the car? Did it start shaking after some work was done or has it progressively gotten worse?

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Jim

[QUOTE=engatwork;2806572]This is the understatement of the day.

ok.....
79 300d 270 on the ticker but engine was rebuild about 80k ago and trans was rebuilt recently. i just aquired this car so when i first picked it up it ran okay.. rough idle bad mielage and loud injectors "nailing"

here are the steps i took to revive the motor:

compression test passed ok
removed injetors to find worn nozzles. (cleaned internals,replaced nozzles,ballanced within 10PSI)(performed diesel purge just prior)
replaced water pump
replaced thermostat, and small hose underneath housing
performed valve adjustment (all had to be adjusted within spec)
air filter replacement
fuel filter replacement
oil and filter replacement
adjusted the transmission shift rod for proper shift points

when i checked inside the filter housing, there was no oil, and it was pretty clean indicating little to no blow by issues.

i must include that the motor runs very very smooth once above idle speeds. its just the idle that is very rough now. this became worse after the valve adjustment

One of the things that is missing from the description is an item called a Drip Tube.

It sounds like you are trying to use what is called the "well up" method.

During the time you are attemting to time someone needs to be pumping on the Hand Primer to keep the Fuel Supply Pressur up and as even as possible.
The Haynes and even the real Mercedes Manual is not clear on that.

See Post #5 for timing pins you might be able to use
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/302162-questions-involving-i-p-timing.html

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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

How do the engine mounts look?

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Jim

pumping the hand primer just until the fuel reaches the bottom of the port? (assuming using the "well" method)

my motor mounts may be part of it... it seems like they are loose or detatched at the bottom part of the mount. they are not normally like that right? both motor mounts should be solid correct? (attatched top and bottom using the rubber as a cushion)

-Jimmy

i just read through that entire thread about finding TDC and they did not once show me a step by step procedure that did not involve dial indicator gauges. from the book i have, it shows to check by the cam lobes.... is this correct. i am going to continue seaching for a step by step now

To check for TDC (Top Dead Center; OT on the Mercedes Crankshaft Damper) on the Compression Stroke on my Engine.
I would remove the Valve Cover, Rotate the Engine in the direction of Rotation watching the Crank Damper until the Pointer lines up with OT (TDC).
To see if it is on the Compression Stroke I would next look at the Back of the Camshaft Drive Gear and Front Camshaft Bearing Tower to see if the Timing Marks are close to being lined up (if you Timing Chain is used the marks will be slightly off).
At that point both of the tops of the Front 2 Camshaft Lobes will be pointing not Straight upwards but will form sort of a upwards “V” shape.

If you did the above but the Timing Marks and Camshaft Lobes are way off you are not on the compression stroke and need to rotate the Engine more in the direction of rotation until TDC (OT) on the Carnkshaft Damper line up again.

If for some reason you think the Pointer down by the Crankshaft Damper is not correct you need to use a Dial Indicator to locate TDC (OT).
The Mercedes Method is to remove the #1 Injector, the Glow Plug, Prechamber Retaining Ring, and the Prechamber.
The Dial Indicator extension rod goes down through that hole and rest on top of the Piston Head. You rotate the Engine in the Direction of rotation until the Dial Indicator just rises to the Highest Point.
Look Down and check to see of the Pointer is Pointing to TDC. If the Pointer is not pointing to TDC you need to adjust the Pointer so it lines up with it.

Army has another method for using the Dial Indicator to find TDC. You can PM Him or if He reads this thread he can post his instructions.

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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

thanks man i apreaciate it. this forum is by far the most supportive. i am a subaru owner and i deal with NASIOC a lot.... people over there are at life haha

ok some craziness to report back from last nights test.

removed valve cover, tried to lift up on the chain and there was no slack at all. (good right) and lined up green timing mark on the compression srtoke. found that when the green timing line is perfectly straight it showed 3 degrees BTDC on the crank signature.

then i tried the method described in the mercedes source handbook. removed the #1 injector line, removed the port and spring inside (not the valve) and re-installed the port. rotated clockwise from the front and went through 2 cycles until about 40 degrees BTDC. as slow as i could, i rotated until my helper told me that fuel was coming out (while slowly keeping pressure with hand primer) very odd that fuel started coming out at 0 degrees... Why would this happen?

next i tried the drip method.. same procedure noted above, but i removed the valve inside. returned to TDC and went through 2 cycles and again slowed at 40 degrees BTDC. rotated all the way through the timing marks and NOTHING! there was no fuel that came out. i even made sure my helper kept the primer going so it was accurate.

i noted on some manuals that it says to have the throttle in the open position (WOT) is this why the fuel did not come out?

thanks,

Jimmy

For god's sake bring it to a shop before you hurt yourself or your car. There is a fairly simple method and procedure for checking IP timing but you need to know how the system works and have the right tools and knowledge to adjust it. Your method of taking WAGs as to how to work on your car could easily end up costing you more than a qualified shop would charge to straighten it out. They will very quickly be able to see what's up and correct your work.

I'm all for the DIY spirit and a big fan of BBSs like this but not everyone has the aptitude, not to mention the tools, to work on these cars. I'm sure that I'll get flamed to death for saying this here but I read more stories of butchered repair attempts and subsequent bad advice on DIY boards than I care to remember. The IP is not a good thing to just hack into and learn as you go, caveman-style. Your car will wind-up being flat-bedded into a MB specialist in a non-running condition.

There are doubtless threads to be found in a search here that explain the correct way to check/adjust IP timing if you choose to ignore my advice. They do not resemble what you are doing. And chains that are completely worn out will still be "tight", they have a tensioner. That means nothing. You do not have "4 inches" of stretch, I guarantee it...

OK tree hugger,

i apreciate the lack of advice. you prove my point yet again on another forum that there are people that have all the input in the world but still do not give any actual help or advice. based on your post count you have very little to no actual purpose of being on this forum other than to tell people to take their cars to a dealer or MB "specialist". why dont you take the time you spent writing your BS and give actual advice; that is if in fact you know what you are talking about. if you know where it is on this forum or another, why not put a link to it?! why not correct me where im wrong? instead you would rather spend your time assuming that i am a hack mechanic and assume i have been doing "cave man" technique...

i aquired this car a month ago and do not expect to be an expert in even 6 months to a year. this is why i research and ask questions. i dont know what your procedure for fixing things is, but i have a good idea you are one of those people who just run off to your local "specialist" and say oh its not running right... (o)

Right.....

BS Aside, these are delicate machines that need skill setting the timing by drip method.

Do This--

1, remove cam-box, turn engine till its at '0' degrees on damper, nos. 1 pot firing (nos. one-pot cam-lobes at ten to two position)

2 remove del-valve and spring. Dont Lose The shim inside outlet union.

3 refit outlet union and snug up.

4 fit spill-pipe.

5 chuck bucket or drip-tray under car.

6 pump primer till fuel flows from drip-tube--Should run freely.

7 SLOWLY turn engine (Clockwise from front) while pumping primer At The Same Time.

8 STOP turning engine when the flow from the drip-tube slows to 1 drip Per Second, whilst pumping primer in a steady 1 stroke per two-seconds.

--IF you go past it, Turn engine two complete revolutions and go slower next time.

9 When you have 1 drip per second, then check the timing reading on the engine timing-damper, read off the timing its currently at.

---Simples, Works every time....

__________________
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...0TDnoplate.jpg

Alastair AKA H.C.II South Wales, U.K. based member

W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K,
-Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog.

W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow,
-Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....

OK, here's some actual advice: Invest in a manual for your car. If you cannot afford the factory shop manual, (referred to as FSM here and elsewhere), at least get a Haynes or similar. All of them will have a detailed description of timing the IP. Without a good manual, you are at the mercy of internet advice which may or may not be worth what you paid for it. Do not just rip into your fuel delivery system w/o a clue as you seem to have done so far.

As to my post count, I am new to this board but not to Mercedes Benz diesels. I also have ~14k posts on Pelican, which recently acquired this company and its BBS. I've spent a lot of time on these boards learning and helping others and I think they are great but once in a while I see a thread like this one and just shake my head.

I am not familiar with the techniques mentioned on this thread. At all. The correct way to check IP timing on an OM617 is to set the crank position @ EXACTLY 24deg. BTDC, (compression stroke #1 cylinder), by turning crank clockwise (from front of car) and stopping @ 24deg. If you go past it, turn the engine 2 complete revs and try again. DO NOT turn engine backwards to get it on the correct position if you go past. You do not need to remove the valve cover to see the #1 cam lobes if your car has an oil cap. Just remove the oil cap and look at them. Are they rabbit ears or are they invisible? Rabbit ears means that you are on (or near) TDC #1 compression. This goes for any engine on the road, gas/diesel/etc. assuming that it's a SOHC like the 617.

Remove the fuel lines and the fitting on pump for #1. (Front fitting). Remove small spring and pin carefully and set aside. Replace fitting. Fit drip tube on #1 fitting. Remove all air from the system w/ hand pump, (loosening fittings temporarily if necessary), then hold pump linkage down, (wide open), and pump hand pump. One drip per second should flow from drip tube while pumping. If it does not, your timing is off and needs to be adjusted.

If the hand pump leaks, as it usually does on these old cars if not replaced recently, you cannot accurately do this test. If you need to adjust pump, a special wrench is required to get at the rear bolt IME. There is a plain gasket between the pump and block that is easily damaged by loosening/tightening and turning the pump. If you tear it, you will have a nasty oil leak that requires R&Ring the pump to replace. Trust me, you are not capable of that job. This is why my advice is to swallow your pride and let someone qualified with the proper tools do this operation. What makes you think that IP timing is off in the first place? Has someone messed w/ it? You may be barking up the wrong tree messing w/ it in the first place, I'd need more info before knowing. I'm pretty qualified to work on these cars and still choose to contract-out certain work even if I know how to do it. Some jobs are cheaper to pay for, unless your time is worthless.

Good luck and get a good manual.