G'day Folks,

Last night I saw the latest Top Gear episode => this time those three kippers were mostly messing about with off road wheel chairs but James "I'll never grow up and I'm proud to be a total bell end" May wet to Florida to see the Fisker Karma

Top Gear meets the Fisker Karma - BBC Top Gear

This uses electric motors and of course batteries but then it has a 2 litre petrol engine that acts as generator rather than as a direct drive back up engine on a hybrid.

In train terms you'd call it a petrol electric!


So making the next logical step...



What about a Mercedes diesel electric?


Just think you could have the performance of a W116 6.9 but with an OM617 generator set in there powering four - yes baby count them - electric motors spinning those wheels at the traffic lights...


I reckon you could do this in any of the "big" Mercedes so how about a

W123 diesel electric?

W116 diesel electric?

W126 diesel electric?

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

VERY intelligent and also very competent technician I'm friendly with here in town ( Don Merrill @ JR'S AUTO CLINIC, INC. ) and I were discussing future drive train platforms and his prescription for the most efficient way of moving a car was "a small diesel engine making power, 4 motors to turn the wheels, once it's underway use one motor/wheel to pull the car and the other three to generate power to send back to the battery"

now we might need 2 wheels to pull and 2 to re-gen, but this is an idea who's time is long overdue.

would a 5 cyc 3.0 liter really be necessary? I doubt it...but if I had more time and money to put into the project I would LOVE to have a diesel/electric AWD w126 getting 50+ mpg

__________________
-SpecialDelivery
1985 300CD Silver/Blue H&R Suspension (Sold, still cryin over that)
1982 300SD Silver/Blue '85 OM617 (Sold)
1982 300D - Blue/Blue (Sold)

this is known as a perpetual motion machine... the drag of the wheels generating power, would be outstripped by the motors pushing them...

now, using them for braking (i.e. regenerative braking) is common practice on most if not all the "hybrids"...

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

respectfully I think you misinterpreted what Don and I discussed...he wasnt talking about making enough juice to run the whole car, he was just taking about using the wheels to make power once the car is underway...to go back to the battery


now if you want to talk about over unity generators, well they're possible too...lets not get into the deleted Tesla patents

__________________
-SpecialDelivery
1985 300CD Silver/Blue H&R Suspension (Sold, still cryin over that)
1982 300SD Silver/Blue '85 OM617 (Sold)
1982 300D - Blue/Blue (Sold)

That doesnt make sense though, why expel more energy than you need and then try and reclaim it back? Just don't expel it in the first place (I.e. Less rolling resistance) and use regen braking

__________________
TC
Current stable:
- 2004 Mazda RALLYWANKEL
- 2007 Saturn sky redline
- 2004 Explorer...under surgery.

Past: 135i, GTI, 300E, 300SD, 300SD, Stealth

no we weren't talking about expelling more energy than needed, we were talking about ONCE the car is rolling...there is a relatively small amount of torque needed to keep it rolling...so use two wheels to generate power

__________________
-SpecialDelivery
1985 300CD Silver/Blue H&R Suspension (Sold, still cryin over that)
1982 300SD Silver/Blue '85 OM617 (Sold)
1982 300D - Blue/Blue (Sold)

The mechanical drive system used today is more efficient than any motor/generator setup. A MG setup may offer flexibility, but not efficiency.

ok...maybe, maybe not, Don isnt schooled in hybrid tech, and none of us are using over unity generators in any commercial applications but if we can split atoms and make planes invisible to radar...we can do anything!

__________________
-SpecialDelivery
1985 300CD Silver/Blue H&R Suspension (Sold, still cryin over that)
1982 300SD Silver/Blue '85 OM617 (Sold)
1982 300D - Blue/Blue (Sold)

X2

And we can certainly use an electric motor to generate power if we want to slow down anyway - why loose all of the energy to brakes when you can recoup a bit for the battery? I think that is all that has been suggested - not necessarily finding the most efficient way of doing it.

I personnally am still at the "oh wow that could be cool stage" - I haven't even got to the "what sort of feedback loop would be needed to stop the wheels from spinning so fast that you just dig them into the ground" stage...

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

They already make diesel hybrids, they are called TRAINS.

__________________
99 E300 turbo diesel, 205k
01 Audi S4
97 4runner - 220k
89 Toyota 4 x 4 P/U 227k

Indeed

Diesel-electric transmission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Google says this a diesel electric too (see below) but with all those shafts perhaps not...

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

Tesla will help develop new electric Mercedes-Benz - BostonHerald.com

Recently in the news here, a deal between Mercedes & Tesla.
Only problem is you'll never find spare parts at PNP

Jeff

__________________
1984 300SD 300,000 miles--two tank WVO setup
2.88 diff & 500SEL anti-squat rear end

Seriously,
Since I was a kid playing with slot cars I've been interested in the various ways autos "could" get around. When I was in junior high school, I saw my first "electric car," which was barely larger than a golf cart, but was used by a local pharmacy to deliver medications to home-bound patients. It had a range of around 25 miles or so (which incidentally is only 10 miles less than the much revered Chevy Volt's electric-only range...)

In high school- we built crazy, gigawatt stereo systems that were powered by multiple batteries and alternators out of retired fire engines and ambulances (200 Amp I think) and I wondered if similar systems could be designed/adapted to actually propel the vehicle itself. I remember learning in physics class that the "typical" gasoline engine was between 5 and 15% efficient based on the amount of work produced. Some electric motors though, were reaching 75% efficiency. I wondered why there weren't more electric cars/trucks around...

So, I have always been interested in this area and have enjoyed watching the technology evolve. I recently saw a special on tv about a 6 wheeled electric car in Japan that used a system similar to what was already described in this thread- and apparently it does work, but is extremely expensive and battery technology has to catch up in order for it to be more accessible.

I'm interested to see how things change/play out over the next 10 years. Oh by the way- if you are at all interested in this area, and if you haven't seen the movie "Who killed the electric car?" I thought it was very well worth the rental fee....

The problem seems more to do with generating and storing the electricity rather than applying it. If we have the 5-15% efficiency engines generating electricity that doesn't get us anywhere, as a mechanical coupling is pretty hard to beat.

BTW one of these pulled up and parked next to me at Wawa today (only on the Philly main line...seriously!)



The car is an absolute work of art! It is HUGE though, surprisingly so.

__________________
TC
Current stable:
- 2004 Mazda RALLYWANKEL
- 2007 Saturn sky redline
- 2004 Explorer...under surgery.

Past: 135i, GTI, 300E, 300SD, 300SD, Stealth

A couple of folks pointed out that process already has a name. It's called regeneration.

My question is, why regenerate energy into electricity then back to motion? Why not fit negator springs into the wheels? Load the negator springs to stop then release the stored mechanical energy to get going again. As a sales incentive, dealership can deliver cars with pre-wound negator springs

Maybe global warming has more to do with heat motor vehicles dissipate through cooling and braking systems than whatever puffs out the tailpipe.

Sixto
87 300D