83 300SD: Changed trans fluid/filter. Now won't go into gear.
 

This past Saturday I drained the transmission and torque converter, dropped the pan, and replaced the filter. The old fluid was somewhat dark (not bad, but darker than new) and there were some metal flakes present, but not terrible. Not enough to really concern me at the time, anyway. I did not notice any unusual odor.

I refilled the transmission with the engine at operating temperature, running in park, and filled it to the max line. Went for a test drive and everything felt fine. Shifts felt crisper than normal, and the car chirped the tires between 2nd and 3rd (never done that before!)

The car then sat for 48 hours. No leaks or anything else unusual developed.

Last night we got in to go to the grocery store, shifted into reverse, and nothing. Revved it up a little and I get a faint "clunk" from the rear end and the car moves forward slightly, then moves back again when I release the accelerator.

Shifting into forward gears produces the same result. Faint clunk from the rear, and the car won't go anywhere at all, regardless of RPM. But in forward gear, if I wind it up past about 2000 RPM, the speedometer starts to jump up to about 40 mph, then back to zero when I let off the accelerator.

I siphoned about half a quart of ATF out of the dipstick hole and poured a bottle of Trans-X high-mileage in, then ran the engine until it was at operating temperature again, and verified proper trans fluid level in park.

The car still won't go anywhere in any gear.

So ... it seems amazing to me, but did I break something simply by changing the fluid and filter?

I've got a "spare" transmission in a parts 300SD that I'm consdering dropping and putting in this car. It's got ~80k fewer miles on it and seems to work fine, but I haven't had a look at the pan.

Is there anything more I can do to troubleshoot before I just drop the transmission?

How many miles had it been since it was last changed? How many miles are on the unit? You are checking it at temperature, idling in park?

I have seen them go bad after a fluid/filter change. Which fluid did you use?

No way of knowing how long since the last change. I believe it's the original transmission, so 293k miles.

Yep, running, in park, temp gauge about 90 C.

I used Wal-Mart SuperTech Dex III /Merc.

My only thought is that maybe you used the wrong filter. There are 2 very similar ones for the diesel tannys. Maybe somehow the pick up is blocked? I'd drop the pan and take a look.

well, the car's supposed to have fluid changes at every 30K, so likely the first 100K or so were dealer maintained, and got the recommended changes, but after that, not so much, likely it's had over 200K on it since fluid was take care of.
your transmission is acting oddly to be sure, my guess is the pump or a shaft bit the dust on one of those CHIRPS... fresh fluid can clean residue, and soften or harden seals, and o-rings, causing things to act differently than before. also, it's possible that you knocked off the vacuum line, and caused hard shifts.
I'd swap tranny's and hope for the best on it.

One other thing. I've tried cheap arse fluid in a older MB application one time and it caused all kinds of problems.

I vaguely remember some one having the Yoke on the Out Put Shaft come loose or being stripped out with similar symptoms.
If the Speedo Needle was moving I am gurssing there must have been Transmission movement up to that point inside of the Transmission.

While you are under there checking to see if the Filter you installed is OK see if there is anything else in the Drive Train disconnected.

... wow. good call D911

Ok -- I got under the car this evening and looked at both flex discs; they're both intact. I didn't even see any cracks in either one.

I verified the vacuum line is connected to the transmission.

I started up the car with the rear wheels up on jackstands. When I put it in reverse, the wheels turn in reverse. When I put it in drive, the wheels turn forward. But nothing when the wheels are on the ground and under load.

Driveshaft looks intact and normal.

I dropped the pan and looked at the fluid (which only has about 5 miles on it) and compared the filter I installed to the one I took off the car.

Filters are identical.

The fluid has metal particles and again looks burned -- has black swirls throughout -- but does not smell bad.

After replacing the filter and refilling with ATF, still the car will not go anywhere.

Hm this doesnt sound good.. Metal particles are never a good sign.

I was going to say perhaps B2 piston but with reverse being out as well that seems unlikely.

You could always take the cover off and inspect the piston and if its OK just reinstall it..

I suspect vstech is right, the pump or a shaft bit the dust.

Answer
 

This issue is becoming more common.
Bad 722.xxx-transmission output flange spinning on shaft

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/301813-transmission-problem-fix.html

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-parts-reference-library/301849-output-flange-722-xxx-transmission.html


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This looks like it just might be where the problem lies. I'll have a look at it tonight. Thanks.

FYI
 

^^ Yes. double check ( even if mentally ) how much fluid you put in it. I stupidly changed the filter and TC fluid on the 380SL and forgot the owner's manual. I happened to have a W123 Haynes manual (we were fixing his 240D) and it read something like 5 quarts, but it didn't specify if that was with or w/o the TC. It wouldn't move until I kept dumping fluid in it. Finally I got home and read the manual and I was pissed at myself.

The other possibilities that come to mind are bad front pump or torque converter.

I wonder if I could have my wife in the car with it in reverse, and me slowly pouring fluid into the dipstick hole, and see if there's some magic amount that will cause the car to move? I've verified via the dipstick that the level is where it's supposed to be, but I couldn't tell you how many quarts that is -- I just relied upon the dipstick to tell me where it should be.

Is it possible for the dipstick to read at maximum and the torque converter to still not be full of fluid?

^^ You never said you ever had the TRANSMISSION hot (you always said engine) , so my thinking is that you don't have an accurate reading. At this point I don't think it will hurt to add another quart. Then- pull a hose off the rad and check and see if you have pressure.

I actually was vaguely wondering about that -- will running the engine until it's at 80C or above heat up the trans fluid too? Or do you actually have to drive to heat up the trans fluid?

I won't get a chance to look at it again until tomorrow (Friday) evening, but pulling one of the hoses off the radiator has been on my list. Do you know which one is the pressure side and which one is the return?

Just takes a moment to double check. Is the speedometer climbing if you give the engine a little fuel while in gear? While having the rear tires on the ground. If it is the transmission is probably okay.

It is a very remote possiblity for a cv joint to have brought the farm. Yet under no load conditions the rear wheels could turn like up on your jackstands with one bad.

The only reason I mention this to me it seemed strange you heard a rear tire chirp when entering third gear.

First to second is about the only point these five cylinder powerhouses might pull this off I supect. Second to third seems a real stretch. Now if you had a 240d automatic I would not question it.:D

This really is a long shot keep in mind. Just something I might check as it only takes a minute .

I have no experience inside an automatic transmission. So I am curious. How could ANY metal flakes found in the fluid be OK ? Are there wear items that produce metal flakes and that is what the filter is for ?

No, it won't really. Other than a bit of thermal creep from the crank/block to the TC. It might heat the tranny 10 degrees. When I was severely under level the car would not GO. As I added more it went better.... but it was still not right until I had 8 + quarts in there. Hope that's it...

Yes. The speedometer climbs (in jumpy fashion) when I have it on the ground and in drive, and rev up the engine.

It may have been 1st to 2nd; I am not entirely sure. Regardless, though, I've wound it up just the same way many times and never heard the tires chirp during a shift before. It didn't seem like a particularly hard shift, either.

I think it's somewhat normal, from what I've read in several places. People have seemed a lot more concerned about burned-looking or burned-smelling fluid than they were about metal flakes.

Did you run the engine without any transmission fluid?

No. I drained the fluid from the pan and torque converter, then refilled to the maximum mark prior to starting the engine. Then I ran the engine until it was over 80 C and re-checked the level and topped up with more fluid.

Did you not count how many quarts you put in or dead soldiers after the fact?

The marks on the dipstick are really meaningless until you bleed all the air out of the TC and all the nooks and crannies everywhere.

I did not. I bought two one-gallon containers of ATF at Wal-Mart (SuperTech Dex III/Merc) and used them. But since I drained and refilled the other evening, I really don't know how much I used last Saturday.

I suppose I can drain the pan and torque converter again, and refill with a known amount this time. I want to check a few other things that various folks have suggested first, though -- output shaft yoke, etc.

^^ I am still confused. Did you start out with 2 one gallon Wallys and used them both up in THIS job? If so, then I would say you got it full, unless you spilled 3 quarts....

In my experience, draining both the sump and torque converter will yield pretty close to 8 qts.

Simply running the engine will not adequately warm the transmission. You need to actually drive the car for 15 miles or so, which is obviously problematic in your case.

Ok, let me clarify.

Last Saturday I drained the pan and the torque converter. Buttoned everything back up, lowered the car to the ground, and put in -- I would estimate -- about one gallon of ATF prior to running the engine. I can't tell you for sure what the amount was because I honestly don't remember, but I'm fairly certain it was at least one gallon. The dipstick read maximum at that point.

Then I started the engine and checked the dipstick periodically, putting in additional ATF (I think it ended up being about two more quarts, so 1.5 gallons total) until the engine was over 80 C and the dipstick once again read maximum. I kept wiping off the dipstick each time I'd check, and I took the lower reading each time if there was a difference between the two sides of the dipstick.

After the car had sat for 48 hours, and once we discovered the "won't go anywhere" issue, I checked the dipstick again, and it was still at maximum.

At that point I sucked out about 16 oz of fluid and poured in a 16-oz bottle of Trans-X High Mileage, which after running for a while made no difference.

^^ so, if I do all the math, you are 2 quarts low. That's your problem, lady.... (maybe , if you are lucky, and you haven't burned something else up in the meantime)

So it seems likely, if my figure of 1.5 gallons (6 quarts) is correct, that the transmission was still underfull when it started exhibiting the won't-go symptom.

I guess I should go buy 3 more gallons of ATF (does anyone recommend anything in particular? Does Wal-Mart's house brand suck?), drain the pan and TC once again, and put in 8 quarts and see what I get.

I'd like to warm the transmission adequately, but I've got a catch-22 problem on my hands.

If I'm a lady, we've got bigger problems to worry about! :eek:

^^ Just an expression. Just go put back in 1.5 quarts and see if it goes. If it goes, drive it carefully some to heat up the fluid, then check the stick and add to the mark.

I'll give that a shot tomorrow night and report back.

There is a cold check procedure. At 86*F, the max level (full) will be 5mm below the MIN line on the dipstick. (Fluid needs to be at 176*F to use the marks normally.)

The owners manual specifies 6.5 qts for a fluid change. (That said, I typically drain about 7.5 qts.)

"Initial fill is 7.3 litres" meaning dry TC which gets close to 8 quarts per the Service Manual I am looking at.

This is interesting. Unless the speedometer movement is being caused from vibrations. Usually the speedometer feed is off the final output shaft of the transmission. If the final transmission shaft is turning the speedometer will read miles per hour.

Another quick check is to get a helper and see if the driveshaft is turning with the wheels on the ground and car in drive. Use a mirror on a long stick or some method to avoid getting under the car during this test.

The tires have to remain on the ground. You do not really have to rev up the engine much for this test. . Hopefully otherwise it is just a situation where you do not have enough fluid in there to allow the transmission to engage.

Answer
 

Your diagnosis is done.

If the speedometer is reading = the final drive is spinning, but the output flange is not.

Item# 584.
Item# 841.
http://www.ganzeboom.net/images1/ganzeboom/parts/Mercedes/722.3,%20722.4.pdf





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This issue is becoming more common.
Bad 722.xxx-transmission output flange spinning on shaft

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/301813-transmission-problem-fix.html

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-parts-reference-library/301849-output-flange-722-xxx-transmission.html


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whunter: I've got a spare output shaft yoke, since I have a parts car. But I can't get it off the car, since the output shaft still has the original four-point locknut on the shaft.

Where can I get the correct socket to remove that nut?

I take it off with a chisel, it is not re-usable and has been superseded by the twelve point nut..

915-0107... GROOVENUT SOCKET-TAIL FLANGE $ 83.46


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Hrm. I decided to just go ahead and pull the transmission from my parts car. A lot of work just to effectively get a nut and yoke, but then again, this transmission has 80k fewer miles than the one that's misbehaving.