Steering issue - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

junqueyardjim · #1 06-19-2012, 10:33 AM

My 83 240D/617 Turbo has a steering issue. The right side (front) wheel has more tilt in at the bottom of the wheel then it should. It is visible if you study the wheel. I had it aligned last summer after I finished the engine switch over. When I first drove the car, the steering was very sloppy and I replaced all three sections of the "tie rod" and fixed that. The steering gear has a wear spot also, in the center or straight ahead. Not much but noticeable and I am going to replace it with the steering gear out of my 85. But the alignment shop says something is bent in that right side suspension. He says there is no more adjustment to get rid of the problem. He thinks the only answer is to replace the major parts, like lower control arm upper control arm and steering knuckle.
Here is a good picture of the parts. http://mb.ilcats.ru/part/class/1/ccode/F/cat/68K/type/123/subtype/133/group/33/subgr//vers//imgno/2
I just can't imagine the wheel spindle being bent in that long arm it is mounted in, but something is out of whack. Tire wear is good and it drives good also, but the problem really shows up at very low speed in a very tight left turn. It wants to bind up and you can feel additional load in the drive line and it does not allow the steering to center back as it should when coming out of a hard turn.

t walgamuth · #2 06-19-2012, 11:12 AM

have you looked at your sway bar attachment?

junqueyardjim · #3 06-19-2012, 11:52 AM

No Tom, I have not. But it is making noise on both sides and I have new bushings coming. Do you think it could be broken? Does the sway bar control the position of the spindle and wheel?

Stretch · #4 06-19-2012, 02:17 PM

If the (front) sway bar - or anti-roll bar is bust then you'll have really really messed up castor. I can imagine that it would also mess up the camber though too as when you are adjusting the front suspension manually on slip plates etc you go round and round in a kind of ever diminishing compromise between adjusting castor and then the camber - sorry how do I say this better?

Move one bit and it messes up the other.

The camber is mainly adjusted on the eccentric pin - in board LCA

The castor is mainly adjusted on the brake stay length

If you take the wheel off and look at the suspension geometry you'll see that the set up is a kind of weird triangle that when you lengthen one side of it the position of the wheel (on the outer point) gets shifted elsewhere which messes up the dimension of the other length.

Jim I need to ask who is doing the alignment. Are they used to doing old Mercedes vehicles?

I've read about people having trouble with chain alignment places who don't RTFM when it comes to adjusting the suspension on our Benzes...

...apparently the operator needs to "sweep" the wheels between each measurement on some of these super fandango laser guided calibrated by NASA machines otherwise you just get meaningless measurements.

Please note:- I do not know what the heck the sweeping is or how it changes the output - I have never put my W123 on one of these machines - and I don't plan to. I'll do it the old fashioned way with slip plates and string thank you very much!

junqueyardjim · #5 06-19-2012, 02:55 PM

Well the alignment guy is a friend of mine and he and his partner run this small shop called Pyramid alignment. Front end work is their specialty, but they do AC and brakes and suspension. They do not do much MB work, but both are excellent mechanics and they have one alignment/computer/laser type machine. I haven't been back to the shop since that time (with this car), it is quite a distance across town. But I remember Paul saying, "well I give up on this thing" Nothing holds on this side, I change one and then I loose the other. Now while I had the car in my garage changing the engine, ect and it sat for a long time with no engine, but I never did notice the outstanding visually obvious error in the way that wheel tilts. I have since read on the forum that if the steering wheel lock is disabled, it makes the alignment job difficult to impossible. Well, I did disable the lock, see no need for it and I do think it is the cause for a lot of lock/key failure. It is just so much easier to jump in that car, stick the key in it and go and I don't have to fight the lock. And I think I could find a way to lock that steering down just for the alignment. Well, I am just trying to find out what I can. I never did learn much about the front suspension. But I am going to get under those front wheels and see what I can find out.

Stretch · #6 06-20-2012, 03:07 AM

Jim - I didn't mean to be rude about your alignment guys - if you are happy with them then that's all that counts. I've just read a fair few stories about people using the chains and getting a bit frustrated.

As for the steering lock - there's a special clamp that you are meant to wedge between the steering wheel and the seat because the steering lock on the column doesn't necessarily click with the wheel in the right place. Ideally you shouldn't be using the steering lock for this purpose.

junqueyardjim · #7 06-20-2012, 10:27 AM

Thanks Army - you and buddy Tom are always most helpful. I am going to start by doing the torsion tube bushings in front. They are both making noise, the colder, the more noise. So that is where we start and we will go through the whole thing. It has to be found.

Stretch · #8 06-20-2012, 01:22 PM

Are you doing this work yourself Jim? If so I can post some links that will help...

...however, if the alignment guys are doing the work for you then I guess they won't need that.

junqueyardjim · #9 06-20-2012, 04:11 PM

Yes sir Army, always looking for something more. I'll take any links, even if they are in Friesian language, (well maybe not that), but yes, please send them on.

Stretch · #10 06-21-2012, 03:42 AM

Here are some notes that might help you out.

To work safely you'll need a spring compressor. The cheaper ones are slightly wider on the housing where the threads run through so you need to make the hole in the chassis slightly larger so it will pass through inside the spring.

There are loads of threads on this matter - it hardly seems worthwhile posting links to them!

If you are starting on the lower control arm (LCA) in board bushings I'd consider doing the bushings under the spring "saucer" that connect the LCA to the brake stay too.

When I did my inboard bushings I came up with this solution for forming the aluminium tube that goes through the two bushings =>

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/277850-how-i-ended-up-fitting-bushings-my-w123-300d-lca.html

I found out later on that the W126 bushings don't have this aluminium tube set up that needs to be deformed...

...so if you haven't already got the parts - buy the W126 ones as they require less work. If however, you've got the W123 ones then the thread will help.

A note for the bushings that join the LCA to the brake stay - these need to be fitted in straight! They are a bit fiddly as the cups they sit in want to twist with the brake stay - I think the best way to fit the bushings is to do it off the car and then fit the brake stay and LCA in one to the car. Replacing these bushings isn't best done in situ in my opinion.

As for the spring "cup" that sits over these bushings => take your time removing these bolts they were rusted into one of my LCAs and snapped off... then it is drill and easy out time - tedious...

To get the LCA out of the car I would do the following =>

1) Remove shock
2) Remove spring
3) Remove tie rod ball joint from steering arm
4) Separate ball joint at the outer end of the upper control arm (UCA)
5) Mark eccentric bolt at inboard LCA mount
6) Remove eccentric bolt
7) Don't forget the brake pipes and the brake pad wear sensor!
8) Undo the bolts holding the huge brake stay ball joint at the chassis
9) Remove LCA + Hub + disc brake + brake stay etc in one

This sounds like you are almost doing a whole front end rebuild - and you are!

The benefit of not adjusting / touching the length of the brake stay is that you stand a better chance of getting the alignment close enough to get it to your buddies for a proper alignment. In my experience counting threads on rods has always been a waste of time - I'm more of a leave it alone and hope for the best kind of a guy now! However if you get stuck after putting it back together and the car is virtually undriveable => wheel pointing the wrong way etc you might be able to get some tips from this thread

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/284337-how-i-adjusted-toe-out-camber-caster-my-w123-300d.html

A set of slip plates and a good eye will get the wheels pointing in the right direction to help you get to the alignment shop under reduced speed hazard lights on conditions!

barry123400 · #11 06-21-2012, 10:01 AM

Your alignment guy may be right in that something is bent. Ask him if he remembers the car and his best guess. He is a friend and that may make it easier.

Since they do a lot of alignments he should or would have really checked for wear in my opinion. Especially when he could not get the car into the needed range of adjustment.

If this is so then perhaps either the front frame is bent a little, The spindal assembly. Or the lower control arm. You may not visually pick this up either.

Two of those parts from a junk yard should be pretty cheap. Chances are they will not be bent either. Talk to your alignment friend about what he would attempt to restore the alignment range.

Those long spindal assemblies are somewhat mallable remember. One good heavy curb hit or simular in the distant past could have tweeked it enough to put the alignment adjustments beyond their range. Do have a close look at the upper ball joints for any differences in mounting. Measuring the distances out from the firewall on both sides. Some of these cars broke their sway bars and it may have been repaired improperly. Again though he should have already examined that. In my opinion there is a better chance of the tire leaning inward at the bottom in a bent situation than leaning outward at the bottom.

Use a critical eye and examine for any signs of obvious collision repair in the cars past as well.