Question on flywheel balance, i screwed up.

[Markp]

Hi All, have not posted here in many moons.
I have been driving the heck out of my 82 300TD for over 6yrs now, avg over 500 mi/wk. The car is my DD/work horse, I do not consider it one of my projects cars, although I have done alot of work to it. Its a pretty nice car which has been very good to me. Car has over 330k now.

I generally can find answers by searching around here with no need for posting, but need some help with these.

Long story short:

Engine tired, infact had quite a bit of blow by when i bought it with 168K. The other day on highway it seemed to blow HG or cracked head or something. Overheated very quickly, blew coolant out hard, smells burnt, oil in coolant.

I have an 85 TD engine I removed from very good running car w/220K. I drove it on a long trip prior to removal and am comfortable that it is a good engine. The cam looks like new, and everything else seems to indicate it is in fine shape so I will swap this into my 82. I am resealing all the common leak points, installing some new bosio's, gp's, belts, hoses, etc. May do Tchain but it sure seems in good shape so not sure on that. i do have a new Tchain for it though.

Question: the 85 motor has the electronic thing on IP and hall sensor.
I have swapped one of these motors in to a 79 in the past and just left it disconected. Ran fine like this, does thing effect timing?

Also, what is the air recirc thing on turbo? anything I should do with it?

Along with this motor, i want to install a 4spd manual trans. I have everything to do this, except need to shorten the shift rods and DS still.

Question: I removed the flexplate from the 85 motor with out marking it (!%!&!*!) I thought for sure that it would only go on one way but obviously I was mistaken. I brought the FP and a 240D FW to a machine shop and asked them to match balance. The 240D FW needed 10.8G removed to match the FP. 10.8G sounds like very little, is it possible that this may be consisdered with in the limits of "zero balance", if so I would bring the 240D FW back and have it balanced to zero, instead of the 10.8G it is now. The 85 FP has quite a few holes on one side, but shop said only 10.8g, I know of other make flywheels that are considerd zero balance that are out 30g, so i am hoping 10.8G is with in zero balance teritory.

There are no witness marks on either flywheel/flex plate, I used emory cloth and magnifying glass and could not see anything at all.
The crank on the 85 617 has two small stamped lines in the back of it but they are crooked with a random location and do not seem to reference anything.

Should I rebalance the 240D flywheel to zero and go with it?.

Should i start it up on a cart prior to installing, if there are vibes will I notice them when testing this way?

I already installed a 2;88 R end in this car and I think I have a handle on everything else, except i can not seem to find a 240D auto cross member, anyone know where to find one?

One last thing, what is the best option for pilot bearing in the 85 crank? Should i try to open it up (hone?) to fit an MB pilot bearing? or should I go with an S10 pilot bearing and have a brass bushing made to fit it in crank?

Thanks for any and all suggestions!!!

[DeliveryValve]

Unfortunately if you don't know exactly what position the flywheel is, then your match balance is worthless. I would go zero and call it a day.



.

[Markp]

Thanks,

So you would bring the flywheel to zero, as opposed to running the current 10.8G balance and taking a chance on position.

I was also consider adding weight to it, since the 5cyl FW is heavier then the 240D. I have read that the 240D is perhaps a bit light for the 5cyl, exacerbating vibration problems.

Thanks, value your opinion.

[DeliveryValve]

Yes, I would zero it out.

I would add the weight if your able to do it. I think 4-5 lbs additional pounds (basically putting the weight in the middle of the 240 and 300 stock weights) would do it.



.

[junqueyardjim]

The approach I took on putting my 617T into the 240D since I had no reference, was put it on and put it on tight. Everything is perfect. On the pilot bearing, I took the standard bearing which is about 30 thousandths bigger then the bore, put it in the freezer over night and took a good shop hammer and a deep socket that will drive it all the way in. Nice warm morning, actually 4th of July 2010, and about 3 good swats with that shop hammer put her in all the way, and it works perfect. Is it in there to tight? Not according to my friend who has been a life long shop owner and mechanic, now retired. He says it will not hurt the bearing or bearing life, but he said it will be difficult to remove.

[Markp]

Thanks,

Ok, I'll go with a regular 240D pilot bearing and try that. I think I'll still try to hone out that hole a bit too. having it come out hard in the future does not bother me, they always come out hard - or in pieces.

Did you spin your flywheel and determine how far off from true zero? I am just curious as to what others have found with 5cyl flex plates or 240D flywheels.

Many thanks,

Mark

[97 SL320]

Originally Posted by Markp

There are no witness marks on either flywheel/flex plate, I used emory cloth and magnifying glass and could not see anything at all.

There are always some sort of marks between 2 surfaces that touch, however using emory cloth will clean them and any dirt / rust off. ( This isn't to say that the person whom assembled them added marks after assembly. )

Have a close look at the crank and flex plate flange faces and see what lines up.

The next question is, did the machine shop take weight off to make the flywheel zero balance or did they make it match the balance of the flex plate?

If it was to match the flex plate, there should have been some sort of mark they applied to designate the heavy side on both units.

[Alastair]

The 617 manual flywheel is nearly double the weight of the 616 flywheel...

You really Need the correct flywheel or you'll suffer vibration at a certain engine speed.

[Markp]

Yes, the shop matched the FW to the FP, FP was 10.8G off of zero so they matched the FW to that. I do not know how much total weight had to be removed from the FW, only that they matched it to the 10.8G of FP

the shop did mark both, so i can positon them both the same, but i do not know what position they should be on the crank.

Both were cleaned thouroughly so i can not see corresponding marks to line up on crank. It is suprising that these are not indexed to one position on the crank! I thought it had a slight variation in spacing (which it actually does but only like 10thou). In retrospec, it was a dumb move not to mark it!

Seeing how the FP is out from zero only 10.8 G, maybe I'll be OK with rebalancing the FW to zero, I am reluctant to install the 10.8g balance as it is though.

What suprises me is how many factory holes are drilled in the FP on one side, for only being 10.8G out from zero.

I do not know what is invloved to add weight to a flywheel, but I would like to add a few pounds to it if possible.

The machine shop is very good, the best around here, but 2hr drive...

Thanks for the reply

[charmalu]

Here is a good discussion on the 617 FW

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/308610-617-flywheel.html

Charlie

[Markp]

Wow, nearly double the weight of 616? Thanks for the tip.

Thanks for the link to FW weight discussion.

I'll report back after i talk with the machine shop about adding weight. I don't really see how this can be done with out changing critical dimensions, but i am not looking at one right now. Maybe a ring can be welded to it somehow.

Nice to be back here, I have found new inspiration into fixing this car up.
I took for granted the mileage i am used to putting on it.
It was a car that i would just hop in and drive anywhere, never left me stranded until the incident the other day. And to think just a few days ago i was going to sell it to buy a VW Dasher Wagon! It was a dam nice Dasher though...

Hopefully I will be able to DD the 300TD for another 6 years.

[charmalu]

I swapped the 85 300D to a 240D 4-spd manual a few year back. Iam using the 240D FW and the 2:88 Differential. that is what I had available and what is available in any great numbers.

I finally found a 617 FW after looking for the past 4 years. If you keep checking the various PNP type junk yards, you will eventually find one. or keep checking the for sale forum, one might show up. PNP fw was $27. NO not for sale.

The 240 FW will work "ok", but you will find some sort of vibrations most notably in 4th gear if you let the rpm`s drop to about 2900 on the HWY. usually around town you will be in 2nd and 3rd gear most of the time with the 2:88 Diff. I don`t get any vibs in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear working up through the gears, everything is pretty smooth. as long as I keep 4th @ 3000 and higher rpm`s.

The 85 has been sitting for the past 18 months, (long story) but should be up and running by Fall with the 617 FW and a few other enhancements.

The car I got the 617 FW out of, was a 81 300D Euro, 617 NA, and probably the 3:46 Diff.

There is a guy locally with a Euro 300TD 4-spd that thinks it is gold plated. It`s full of junk, cover with tarps and rusting out. but won`t part with anything.

Charlie

[t walgamuth]

stock 240 fw is 28#
300 fw is 38#

the 240 fw works fine just not as sweet to shift as the 300 fw and barely noticable difference in vibrations.

ten grams is what 1/3 oz?

i guess i'd zero it out.

[charmalu]

Here is a picture of the 240 and 300 FW.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/2938885-post65.html

Charlie

[panZZer]

Originally Posted by Markp

Hi All, have not posted here in many moons.
I have been driving the heck out of my 82 300TD for over 6yrs now, avg over 500 mi/wk. The car is my DD/work horse, I do not consider it one of my projects cars, although I have done alot of work to it. Its a pretty nice car which has been very good to me. Car has over 330k now.

I generally can find answers by searching around here with no need for posting, but need some help with these.

Long story short:

Engine tired, infact had quite a bit of blow by when i bought it with 168K. The other day on highway it seemed to blow HG or cracked head or something. Overheated very quickly, blew coolant out hard, smells burnt, oil in coolant.

I have an 85 TD engine I removed from very good running car w/220K. I drove it on a long trip prior to removal and am comfortable that it is a good engine. The cam looks like new, and everything else seems to indicate it is in fine shape so I will swap this into my 82. I am resealing all the common leak points, installing some new bosio's, gp's, belts, hoses, etc. May do Tchain but it sure seems in good shape so not sure on that. i do have a new Tchain for it though.

Question: the 85 motor has the electronic thing on IP and hall sensor.
I have swapped one of these motors in to a 79 in the past and just left it disconected. Ran fine like this, does thing effect timing?

Also, what is the air recirc thing on turbo? anything I should do with it?

Along with this motor, i want to install a 4spd manual trans. I have everything to do this, except need to shorten the shift rods and DS still.

Question: I removed the flexplate from the 85 motor with out marking it (!%!&!*!) I thought for sure that it would only go on one way but obviously I was mistaken. I brought the FP and a 240D FW to a machine shop and asked them to match balance. The 240D FW needed 10.8G removed to match the FP. 10.8G sounds like very little, is it possible that this may be consisdered with in the limits of "zero balance", if so I would bring the 240D FW back and have it balanced to zero, instead of the 10.8G it is now. The 85 FP has quite a few holes on one side, but shop said only 10.8g, I know of other make flywheels that are considerd zero balance that are out 30g, so i am hoping 10.8G is with in zero balance teritory.

There are no witness marks on either flywheel/flex plate, I used emory cloth and magnifying glass and could not see anything at all.
The crank on the 85 617 has two small stamped lines in the back of it but they are crooked with a random location and do not seem to reference anything.

Should I rebalance the 240D flywheel to zero and go with it?.

Should i start it up on a cart prior to installing, if there are vibes will I notice them when testing this way?

I already installed a 2;88 R end in this car and I think I have a handle on everything else, except i can not seem to find a 240D auto cross member, anyone know where to find one?

One last thing, what is the best option for pilot bearing in the 85 crank? Should i try to open it up (hone?) to fit an MB pilot bearing? or should I go with an S10 pilot bearing and have a brass bushing made to fit it in crank?

Thanks for any and all suggestions!!!

from all the info ive garnered neutral balancing was the way it was done by 82=3 ish up so your 85 should be ok as long as the flexplate dosent have a heavy side--then just get the machine shop to remove material and zero the 240 flywheel., but your 240 flywheel will cause the vibe- they do around --what is it 2500 rpm, t walgamuth knows the situation better than most.