Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-24-2013, 02:35 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Park Forest, IL
Posts: 23
617 vibration dampeners: Is the difference US vs. Euro spec or Turbo vs. NA?

I am talking about my Euro spec 1984 300D with a normally aspirated (non-turbo) 617 motor. A few months ago the front pulleys and vibration dampener fell off when I was driving about 70mph. I shut the car down real quick and pulled to the side of the road. Broke my fan, and the flying broken fan blades shredded the radiator. The car didn't overheat, unless you count the retained heat after losing most of the coolant.

To be clear, I am trying to stick to Mercedes terminology: the vibration damper is the piece that looks kind of like a brake rotor, it is sandwiched between the lower pulleys and what Mercedes calls the balance plate. The balance plate is held on to the crank with a big center bolt and two dowel pins.

No problems with the balance plate attached directly to the crank, it stayed solidly in place. The six bolts which go through the lower pulleys and the vibration damper sheared off.

The vibration damper and pulleys stayed together (rust) and remained in the engine compartment, the belts kind of held them up. I had the car towed home, and when I took the vibration dampener/pulleys loose from the belts and out of the car, a few of the bolts fell out of the middle of the pulley. some of the bolts were sheared, one was full length but mangled.
The vibration damper itself looked pretty bad to me, all 6 bolt holes were ovaled, some more than others, the bolt holes also showed thread marks, like the disk was wobbling loose for a little while before it came off.

My running 240D was out of order with a busted axle, and I had a another 300D parts car sitting, so I figured I could swap the vibration damper from one 617 motor to another 617. Not necessarily so! The vibration damper disk that fell off of my 1984 Euro spec, non-turbo 617 turned out to be thicker and more deeply “dished” compared to the damper that I took off my 1982 US spec, turbo 617.

The crucial difference between the two is the depth: the bolts that held on the US turbo version were M8x_ , the bolts that held on the Euro non-turbo version were longer: M8x45. As well it’s more than a matter of just using longer bolts. The balancers are different, the US turbo vibration damper is not deep enough to seat down flush to the bottom of the recess in the center of the Euro balancer. If I were to cobble together a bolt length that “worked”, I’m sure that I would shear those bolts off very quickly.


More bad news, when researching the FSM and online I saw that The blts were supposed to be allen head cap screws. The remaining bolts that I found after losing the vibration damper/pulley from the motor were 8mm allen head but they weren’t cap screws, more of a round head.



I decided to get the old sheared off portions of the bolts out of the balancer plate, there were three stuck in there. I was able to just spin two out by catching the broken edge with a screwdriver. The third was stuck in there real good, I center punched it and tried to drill it with some pretty decent drill bits, really didn’t make a mark, just made it shinier.
I examined the old bolts and thought they looked a lot like stainless steel. I looked at the vibration dampener again and noticed what looked like some orange junkyard type markings. So I guess this isn”t the first time the vibration damper fell off the front of this motor.


I put the “original” vibration damper back on the motor, even though I had my doubts about it, and drove very carefully for the next three days until my new axle came for my 240D. The day after I parked The 300D I found half of one the bolts in the parking lot at my job. I thought that I might have over torqued one bolt when I was getting it together, I used a torque wrench and paid attention to the specs (35Nm) but I thought I felt one twist and give, the spot I was working had a lot of traffic noise making it hard to hear a click and the position I was in made it hard to feel the click.


I feel very fortunate to have made it through those three days without doing any further damage.


The question: is the difference in the vibration dampeners a Euro vs. US difference or a turbo vs. non turbo difference? Anybody ever take apart the front of a US non-turbo motor? Does the vibration dampener on the right look like the vibration dampener on a US non-turbo motor? If so I should be able to find a part fairly easily that will fit.


Anyone ever take apart a Euro spec non-turbo? Does the vibration dampener on the right look correct? Because with the stainless steel non standard screws being used, I do have to wonder if this is the correct part for the motor or if it’s just something the previous owner thought would work.


I am optimistic that a US non-turbo 617 may have the same vibration damper as my Euro 1984 non turbo 617. The one shown in this Ebay listing looks similar.



Mercedes W123 OM617 Non Turbo Harmonic Balancer | eBayClick image for larger version

Name:	US turbo left Euro non turbo right.jpg
Views:	855
Size:	38.5 KB
ID:	113587

Click image for larger version

Name:	side view US turbo left Euro non turbo right.jpg
Views:	600
Size:	34.3 KB
ID:	113588

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-24-2013, 08:58 AM
vstech's Avatar
DD MOD, HVAC,MCP,Mac,GMAC
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mount Holly, NC
Posts: 26,835
NEITHER of those pulleys are from a turbo motor... all the turbo engines had the dual pulley alternator drive...

I have both NA 617, and a turbo 617 from and 85 car long blocks sitting on the floor of my shop... I'll see if I can pull them and compare for you.
__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-24-2013, 09:02 AM
vstech's Avatar
DD MOD, HVAC,MCP,Mac,GMAC
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mount Holly, NC
Posts: 26,835
I know there are crank differences between the NA and the A 617, the oil pump is chain driven on the turbo... it would make sense that the balancer would be different as well, since the block is nearly the same, they had to make up the change somewhere... also, the turbo would need the mass to decrease turbo lag, but I thought they would do that on the flywheel...
__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-24-2013, 09:08 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Park Forest, IL
Posts: 23
Thanks vstech, this is the first time I put pictures up on PP, so it it's worth ezplaining that the two pics at the end of the post are views of the two styles of vibration damper I have on hand. In both pics the one on the left came off my !982 US turbo 300D, on the right is the one from my 1984 Euro spec non-turbo 300D.

The ebay link is to a vibration damper (harmomic balancer in ebay listing) from a 1981 or earlier non turbo 617 motor.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-24-2013, 09:18 AM
vstech's Avatar
DD MOD, HVAC,MCP,Mac,GMAC
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mount Holly, NC
Posts: 26,835
um, I was upside down when I looked at the pulleys... but now I understand better...

however, looking at your pictures, it appears you have the turbo pulley on the right balancer, and the NA pulley on the left balancer.
simply from the standpoint of dual groove alternator drive...
__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-24-2013, 10:08 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Park Forest, IL
Posts: 23
the pulley onthe righr in the pictures came out of my 1984 Euro spec non turbo 300D. It's a non AC car as well as a non turbo. this would explain the number of pulley grooves, two close to the vibration damper for the alternator, one on the outside for power steering. BTW my 1984 Euro spec non turbo 300D is also a manual trans. One reason I bought the car was to get the more massive flywheel that goes with the manual trans.

The 616s really don't have much of a vibration damper, so maybe the addition of a vibration damper on the 617s was so they could continue to use the older design flywheels.

But my question really is: Is the vibration dampener on the right in the pictures the same as a US Non Turbo 617 motor?

I need Stretch to weigh in on this, He's taken these motors to bits
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-24-2013, 10:33 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Park Forest, IL
Posts: 23
Here's another clue. The bolts that sandwich the vibration damper/pulleys to the balancing disc are longer on my Euro spec non turbo 300d: they are M8x45.

The bolts that held on the vibration damper/pulleys to the balancing disc on my 1982 300D are shorter (M8x30?)

Anyone ever remove the vibration damper/pulleys from a US non turbo 617? Do you remember what size bolts?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-24-2013, 10:39 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Leiden, Netherlands
Posts: 614
If you look at the diagrams in the FSM for the 300D N/A and the 300D Turbo you can see the difference in vibration dampers. The turbo damper is flat, the N/A is deeper.

The balancing disc is also different.

N/A indeed uses M8 x 45
Turbo uses M8 x 30

There should be no difference between US or Euro engine, there is a difference between turbo and N/A.

The damper on the right does indeed look like a N/A.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-24-2013, 10:59 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Park Forest, IL
Posts: 23
Thanks Grovert. My FSM is a North American edition dated 1991. I wasn"t able to find a comparison in mine.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-24-2013, 05:38 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfbenz View Post
...
I need Stretch to weigh in on this, He's taken these motors to bits
Do you want part numbers?

I can dig some stuff out of the garage tomorrow if need be (that's in about 8 hours from the time of this post where I am)

You can also try getting in touch with 1960mog he's done loads of stuff on these engines (more than me).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Govert View Post
...

The damper on the right does indeed look like a N/A.
X2




##########



Whilst finding these parts is part of the problem, the biggest trouble you are likely to have is to find a way of locking the flywheel so you can apply that monster torque to the 27mm across the flats headed bolt. This is a crucial part of the job to stop things from falling off
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-24-2013, 05:44 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch View Post
...
Whilst finding these parts is part of the problem, the biggest trouble you are likely to have is to find a way of locking the flywheel so you can apply that monster torque to the 27mm across the flats headed bolt. This is a crucial part of the job to stop things from falling off
Hang about that's not the bit that's falling off is it.

I think you need to check to make sure that that is good though.

Have you looked at the pulley with the engine running? How straight is it?
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-24-2013, 10:49 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Park Forest, IL
Posts: 23
sorry, Stretch, just got in from work.

You have a good point about the big main bolt holding the balancing disk onto the crank. After I replaced the old (same that fell off) vibration damper I did notice a wobble in the pulley attached to it. not as bad a wobble as I expected considering that all 6 mounting holes were ovalled and I thought I might have sheared one bolt (later confirmed when I found half of that bolt in the parking lot at my job.

Now, with the damper and pulleys removed again, would be a good time to run the motor for a few brief moments and check visually for any wobble in the balancing disk itself, although being irregularly shaped it might be harder to detect, I'll pick a good high or low spot and hit it with a little dab of paint, I might be able to follow that spot.

I'll look more closely at the installation of the balancing disk and 27 mm bolt for signs of replacement/butchery. I am optimistic that my problem is with the vibration damper not the balancing disk.

I remember you had a poll about harmonic balancer failure. For my failure, which is only partial I would nominate overtensioning of the belts as a possible cause. In the US most of the belts sold aftermarket are slightly too narrow, I guess because the manufacturers want to sell what they are already making giving a nominal metric size to a belt designed to inch standards. The belts continually get looser, and the tendency (I have) is to keep cranking them tighter. after getting in there and seeing how everything goes together I have a lot more respect for the lateral force an overtensioned belt would put on the pulleys and thus on the bolts attaching the pulley/vibration dampener.

From the evidence: 1. non standard stainless steel (dumb) bolts 2. junkyard paint marks on the vibration balancer, this will be at least the second time the damper was replaced.

When I found that I didn't have the part on hand, I really kind of backed off of the job. I was afraid that I would be searching for this part in Europe. I've never worked on a 123 manufactured before 1982 and that was part of my hangup. It took me about 6 weeks of turning this over in my mind to get to thinking that this was a turbo/non-turbo issue rather than a European market/US market issue.

Based on appearance and the feedback from you, vstech and grovert, I'm fairly confident that an earlier US market vibration damper will fit.

If you have easy access to part numbers it could be helpful, I have looked and not found any numbers on the part I have, cleaning it up might help.
The Mercedes people here are reluctant to do anything with a car imported outside their system, but I do have one friendly parts man who might look up the number and tell me what US market cars used it.

To help me evaluate the condition of a used vibration damper, how snug do the 6 8mmx45 bolts fit in the holes through the vibration damper? I only have experience with the two I've removed; the ruined ovalled one is extremely loose fit through the 6 holes, but the presumably good one from my 1982 turbo parts car calls for the same diameter bolts and the fit through those bolt holes is also far from tight.

Thanks for your help man, not just today, you've been a terrific source of information over the last 5 years.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-25-2013, 12:20 AM
macdoe
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 759
I think that the damper on my 84 euro 300d n/a looks different than the damper on my 79 300d n/a U.S version. It is too dark to check right now, but I remember noticing differences... I vote for seized or dragging bearings on accesory belt driven components for example a/c compressor and alternator bearings as a possible cause for balancer problems. In my case a/c compressor was tested by hotwiring the clutch to come on with engine running....it was seized and stalled the motor when we touch the wires to power. The next day on the way to work the damper failed.

Last edited by macdoe; 07-25-2013 at 01:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-25-2013, 12:27 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Park Forest, IL
Posts: 23
Thanks. appreciate it if you could check it out when you have a chance. Looks like a part number would be useful before I start buying used parts online.
__________________
1983 240D 4spd
1984 300D Euro 4spd non turbo
1982 300D Parts Car (bad auto trans)
1982 240D Parts Car (blown motor)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-25-2013, 01:36 AM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Number from Russian EPC

Here are some numbers form the Russian EPC (found via EverythingBenz - Mercedes-Benz Forum and Web Search Using Google)


Attached Thumbnails
617 vibration dampeners: Is the difference US vs. Euro spec or Turbo vs. NA?-om617-n_a-front-crank-parts1.jpg   617 vibration dampeners: Is the difference US vs. Euro spec or Turbo vs. NA?-om617-n_a-front-crank-parts2.jpg  

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page