Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-30-2013, 03:28 PM
jay_bob's Avatar
Control Freak
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 3,941
W210 cruise control issue

I have owned this 1998 E300DT since March. It has been a wonderful car and everything has been great except for the cruise control.

I bought the car from a forum member in Maryland and drove it home to SC. I noticed that the cruise control was difficult to engage and would often drop out as the car crested a hill.

I thought, bad amp or actuator, I will check it out when I get home. Wrong, this car is the drive by wire system and the main engine control system runs the cruise.

So I have been doing some more experimentation and have discovered the following.

Speed under 55 mph, cruise picks up instantly and holds rock steady, no problems, up hills, down hills, around curves, no matter what it stays locked in until I tap the brake.

Speed up to about 65 mph, cruise picks up but you have to hold the stick a second or two. It will hold mostly but it seems to drop out when you crest over a hill and the car begins to pick up speed.

Speeds over 65 mph, it is very difficult to get it to pick up at all, and it will drop out after a few seconds no matter what the terrain.

So you W210 drive by wire experts out there, what am I looking at? My gut feeling is a speed sensor that is noisy, and at higher speeds, the noise increases to the point where the input stage of the computer can't comprehend the waveform coming from the sensor due to the noise, so the controller drops the cruise lock.

__________________
The OM 642/722.9 powered family
Still going strong
2014 ML350 Bluetec (wife's DD)
2013 E350 Bluetec (my DD)

both my kids cars went to junkyard in 2023
2008 ML320 CDI (Older son’s DD) fatal transmission failure, water soaked/fried rear SAM, numerous other issues, just too far gone to save (165k miles)
2008 E320 Bluetec (Younger son's DD) injector failed open and diluted oil with diesel, spun main bearings (240k miles)

1998 E300DT sold to TimFreeh
1987 300TD sold to vstech
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-30-2013, 08:56 PM
KarTek's Avatar
<- Ryuko of Kill La Kill
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bahama/Eno Twp, NC
Posts: 3,258
The only thing I can say is to check the position of the brake switch. Not because it makes any sense to check it but only because that's the only thing that I know of that you can check visually and make sure it's positioned properly.
__________________
-Evan


Benz Fleet:
1968 UNIMOG 404.114
1998 E300
2008 E63


Non-Benz Fleet:
1992 Aerostar
1993 MR2
2000 F250
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-01-2013, 02:06 AM
Jeremy5848's Avatar
Registered Biodiesel User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sonoma Wine Country
Posts: 8,402
Also check the tires for uneven wear (one tire very much more worn than the others, I mean) or sizing differences. If the cruise control "program" looks at the ABS wheel sensors and sees a significant difference, it might drop the cruise (or refuse to engage). Higher speeds will make any such differences greater, of course.

The ABS wheel sensors themselves could be dirty, as could the toothed wheel the sensor looks at. Removal of the sensor for inspection and cleaning is not difficult. However, such problems should throw a code.

Jeremy
__________________

"Buster" in the '95

Our all-Diesel family
1996 E300D (W210) . .338,000 miles Wife's car
2005 E320 CDI . . 113,000 miles My car
Santa Rosa population 176,762 (2022)
Total. . . . . . . . . . . . 627,762
"Oh lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz."
-- Janis Joplin, October 1, 1970
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-01-2013, 09:59 AM
KarTek's Avatar
<- Ryuko of Kill La Kill
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bahama/Eno Twp, NC
Posts: 3,258
Isn't there something about resetting the steering angle sensor by turning the steering wheel all the way, lock to lock several times.
__________________
-Evan


Benz Fleet:
1968 UNIMOG 404.114
1998 E300
2008 E63


Non-Benz Fleet:
1992 Aerostar
1993 MR2
2000 F250
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-01-2013, 10:31 AM
jay_bob's Avatar
Control Freak
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 3,941
Thanks for the suggestions.

Brake switch, I will check it but I think it's ok because the cruise holds fine at lower speeds. Even if I hit a bump below 55 mph it stays locked in. Even at the higher speeds, I've never had a bump take it out of lock. Cresting a hill seems to be the thing that triggers a loss of lock.

Tires, the PO put 17" CLK rims on with low profile tires. (Sweet!) I need to do some research on the sizes of the tires from the factory vs. what is on there. I know that the fronts and rears are different sizes from stock per the sticker on the door post. Pressures good, +/- a pound or 2 all the way around and inflated per the spec on the sticker. Speedo is spot on accurate according to my GPS. PO included the original rims with the sale, but the tires on them are shot.

Steering angle sensor, that is for the ESP, this car does not have this option. Only ABS, BAS and ASR on this car.

Thanks, keep em coming! I need to take a closer look at the tire sizes later today, I will report back with my findings.
__________________
The OM 642/722.9 powered family
Still going strong
2014 ML350 Bluetec (wife's DD)
2013 E350 Bluetec (my DD)

both my kids cars went to junkyard in 2023
2008 ML320 CDI (Older son’s DD) fatal transmission failure, water soaked/fried rear SAM, numerous other issues, just too far gone to save (165k miles)
2008 E320 Bluetec (Younger son's DD) injector failed open and diluted oil with diesel, spun main bearings (240k miles)

1998 E300DT sold to TimFreeh
1987 300TD sold to vstech
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-01-2013, 11:53 AM
Jeremy5848's Avatar
Registered Biodiesel User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sonoma Wine Country
Posts: 8,402
The tire/wheel sizes don't have to be stock but the outside diameter of the mounted tires has to be the same all-around, I believe. For example, I put 16 inch wheels (stock 15 inch) on my '95 E300 and lower profile tires to keep the speedo unchanged (the error is about 1/2%). All four tires are identical so no problem was caused. If the fronts and rears on your car are different diameters (from each other) that could be the source of the problem; again, such a problem would worsen as speed increases.
__________________

"Buster" in the '95

Our all-Diesel family
1996 E300D (W210) . .338,000 miles Wife's car
2005 E320 CDI . . 113,000 miles My car
Santa Rosa population 176,762 (2022)
Total. . . . . . . . . . . . 627,762
"Oh lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz."
-- Janis Joplin, October 1, 1970
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-01-2013, 12:20 PM
jay_bob's Avatar
Control Freak
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 3,941
That's where I am leaning, when I get a moment later on today, I will try to get some OD measurements on my tires.
__________________
The OM 642/722.9 powered family
Still going strong
2014 ML350 Bluetec (wife's DD)
2013 E350 Bluetec (my DD)

both my kids cars went to junkyard in 2023
2008 ML320 CDI (Older son’s DD) fatal transmission failure, water soaked/fried rear SAM, numerous other issues, just too far gone to save (165k miles)
2008 E320 Bluetec (Younger son's DD) injector failed open and diluted oil with diesel, spun main bearings (240k miles)

1998 E300DT sold to TimFreeh
1987 300TD sold to vstech
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-01-2013, 02:43 PM
jay_bob's Avatar
Control Freak
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 3,941
I did some more research on the problem.

The 95 E300D is a W124. That is a non-turbo OM606 with the direct connection between the driver's foot and the rack, with the same VSS/Amplifier/Actuator setup as used for the 123s and 124s. This is what I thought the W210 had until I started digging into the problem. I'm familiar with that system from my 240D and my 300TD.

The 96-99 E300Ds are W210s. They changed to a drive by wire system. When you push the pedal, it pulls a cable to a sensor near the master cylinder. The sensor wires go to the big box on the passenger side of the engine bay. In there is the engine controller (and the transmission controller, and the ABS controller, and the dreaded K40 relay). Then the signal goes out of the controller to a servo located on the inside of the false firewall on the passenger side. A cable from the servo loops over the back of the engine block just behind the valve cover, and hits the rack mechanism on the IP.

The ABS controller and the engine controller talk to each other over CAN bus. The wheel speed sensors from the ABS are used to also provide the speed reference to the cruise control. (The 124 uses a pickup off the back of the speedometer to run the cruise control, the ABS sensors are just used for the ABS.)

One of the safeties in the W120 system is that the 4 wheel speed sensors have to agree, or else it reasons that the car is being driven in a situation where cruise is inappropriate. This causes the cruise control to drop its lock.

After more thought, I now suspect tire diameter problems with the non-stock tires. If I had a wheel speed sensor failing, it would throw a code and turn on my BAS/ASR or ABS lights.

I think I have an idea for checking tire diameter:
- Stick a small piece of tape on each tire such that the tape is pointing straight down
- Drive the car down the street a hundred feet or so
- Check to see if the 4 pieces of tape are still at the same relative position on each tire
If the pieces of tape are not all pointing the same angle then the tires have different diameters.
__________________
The OM 642/722.9 powered family
Still going strong
2014 ML350 Bluetec (wife's DD)
2013 E350 Bluetec (my DD)

both my kids cars went to junkyard in 2023
2008 ML320 CDI (Older son’s DD) fatal transmission failure, water soaked/fried rear SAM, numerous other issues, just too far gone to save (165k miles)
2008 E320 Bluetec (Younger son's DD) injector failed open and diluted oil with diesel, spun main bearings (240k miles)

1998 E300DT sold to TimFreeh
1987 300TD sold to vstech
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-01-2013, 06:53 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Walnut Creek, CA & 1,150 miles S of Key West
Posts: 4,874
"If the pieces of tape are not all pointing the same angle then the tires have different diameters. "

Just use an online tire calculator.......it will be more accurate because under your scenario if you turn the wheel during the test your results will be impacted.
__________________
Terry Allison
N. Calif. & Boca Chica, Panama

09' E320 Bluetec 77k (USA)
09' Hyundai Santa Fe Diesel 48k (S.A.)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-08-2014, 01:49 PM
jay_bob's Avatar
Control Freak
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 3,941
Update

Went back to stock size tires and rims this week.

I did not notice at the time (got busy with work etc after I posted this and forgot about it) but once the tires were off the car it was totally apparent that the fronts and rears are different diameters.

Today was the first chance to get out on the expressway.

Cruise control works perfectly now.

So as the saying goes, size matters. Especially tire size and W210 drivetrain electronics.
__________________
The OM 642/722.9 powered family
Still going strong
2014 ML350 Bluetec (wife's DD)
2013 E350 Bluetec (my DD)

both my kids cars went to junkyard in 2023
2008 ML320 CDI (Older son’s DD) fatal transmission failure, water soaked/fried rear SAM, numerous other issues, just too far gone to save (165k miles)
2008 E320 Bluetec (Younger son's DD) injector failed open and diluted oil with diesel, spun main bearings (240k miles)

1998 E300DT sold to TimFreeh
1987 300TD sold to vstech
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-08-2014, 03:32 PM
JamesDean's Avatar
Electrical Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 5,038
Yep the later cruise control systems use speed signal from more than 1 sensor.

I actually had someone email me all the way from Dubai with a problem just like yours. This was on a newer ML. They could only get certain size tires and when they put the new tires on the front the cruise disabled above a certain speed.

It turns out the front/back had a difference of about 2 inches! Ultimately I think they bought new rear tires that brought the diameter difference to under an inch, which restored the cruise control.

__________________
Cruise Control not working? Send me PM or email (jamesdean59@gmail.com). I might be able to help out.
Check here for compatibility, diagnostics, and availability!

(4/11/2020: Hi Everyone! I am still taking orders and replying to emails/PMs/etc, I appreciate your patience in these crazy times. Stay safe and healthy!)


82 300SD 145k
89 420SEL 210k
89 560SEL 118k
90 300SE 262k RIP 5/25/2010
90 560SEL 154k
91 300D 2.5 Turbo. 241k
93 190E 3.0 235k
93 300E 195k
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page