What would be a reasonable hour estimate for labor on an 82 300d - assuming these things were being replaced x 4

pads
rotors
hoses
calipers
+ master cylinder
+ bleeding system, etc.

10 hours? 5 hours?

Trying to understand what I should expect while shopping for the right shop to do this work. I'm in NJ outside of NYC so I expect to pay more than just about anywhere else in the world.


I don't even know if I need all these things - probably just calipers and hoses would set me straight.

Thanks!

W123
Pads 1.2 hrs @
Rotor .7 hrs @ (if necessary)
Parking Brake adjust and replace pads 1.9 (both rear)(if necessary)

Source autobytel

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My .02 cents. ASSUMING this is all original and this car is a "Keeper", you are probably way better off replacing everything at once and be done with it, AND why not take a stab at it yourself? All this stuff is pretty easy. I would think an average person could do everything possibly related as you noted above (exclude MC) in less than 4 hours and that's not killing yourself.

greazzer.... you instill some confidence in me could be good or dangerous. The car is pretty great, not a lot of wear (113k miles) but obviously some age. I have no idea if the brake components are original, but I would assume many of them could be, and therefor should probably be replaced after 34 years. I don't want to get rid of this, it's a beautiful body, nice interior, garaged it's whole life, and the condition is generally quite wonderful.

an idea of the basic condition: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10549909/pics/merc/merc.jpg

It does seem like I could do this job - it's just parts after all and I consider myself pretty average... I'm VERY new to the game of cars, and I've been mostly focused on interior things, power locks, trunk leaks, things of that nature. I've never done anything like this with a vehicle, but I do consider myself mechanically inclined.

The biggest things about brakes that intimidate are:
1) any special tools would I need to buy
2) the whole bleeding thing
3) being confident that I've done things right and safe.

The fact that I have nobody around to double check the sanity of the work is the primary reason I've been looking for a shop. The shops just want to be able to back up their work, so they won't address the issues them piece by piece or use the parts that I want. They just want to replace everything at once, with the parts they prefer. How might the shop have determined that I need a new master cylinder as well? Is that something I can double check myself? Is it common that if the other brake parts are this old/word out/sticking that the master cylinder is ready to be replaced as well?

One last thing: Should I first make a thorough check of my vacuum system starting the the pump and on to each downstream system before even tacking the brakes? (I plan on doing this anyway to address locks).

One thing about car repairs that I have learned the hard way over the years. First, take your time. Period. When you rush or work on your DD and you have no back-up, you always feel rushed and stuck to get it done by Sunday night. If you started on a Saturday morning, and preferably indoors (although not a necessity) you should certainly be done by Saturday evening, and that is piddling, taking your time, hopping on the internet to check this or that, grabbing a cup of coffee, small arguments with the wife or kids, and taking your time.

Second: Get all the written / video help which is out there. Get a free copy of the FSM. They are floating out there. Make sure you have the spec's and torque values at your finger tips. Watch You Tube, et cet. Most of the basic maintenance stuff is no mystery.

Third: Get all the correct parts in hand before you start. A little planning goes a long way.

Fourth, if you bleed your system, and you should flush it, get a pressure bleeder by Motive Products, under $40 shipped OR have your significant other pump your brakes, hold ... pump ... hold ... lol My wife is my official brake pumper and has been so for pushing 30 years.

Fifth: The MC is only a PITA because you have to crawl under the dash to get those 4 damm nuts off the threaded studs. If you're young or limber, not a problem.l For me, it's a royal PITA and somewhat difficult now for me and something I get my son to do...Better for him to invest 10 minutes vs. weeks of lower back and neck pain agony.

Sixth: no special tools at all, but make sure you have what you need lined up. Car jack, jack stands, spare tires under the car just to be safe, basic hand tools, torque wrench, et cet. Nothing special, but I am assuming most folks have basic tools. The few oddball things can be purchased at horrible freight for peanuts.

Seventh: Clean stuff. Having everything as clean as possible goes a long way. If you don't have a pressure washer, buy a few cans of brake cleaner, gunk, or whatever. Having clean parts and clean working surface goes a long way also.

If you feel skiddish, then do one repair at a time and test the waters as you go. You can easily do just the pads and sensors, or do the rotors and pads, but that means removing the rotors from the hubs, which means you will need a gauge to re-install the hubs on the spindle. NOT difficult at all, but that probably means replacing the wheel bearings since you are down there. Not mandatory, but something to think about. If not, you will need around $20 bucks in special tools from horrible freight, the magnet holder thing and gauge. NOT a big deal and very easy.

I think I did my first brake job at the age of 16 and I survived. There was no internet and no one looking over my shoulder back then. Plus, there were a zillion springs and gizmos vs. just swapping out pads back then. I suspect if you really invest around 3 to 4 hours to watch some videos, plan out the operation, you will be rewarded with the following:

1. You learned something new
2. You will probably do a better job than the shop
3. You will a bunch of money

Unless you have experience bleeding brakes you may want to use a professional. You will need a floor jack and jack stands.

If the car stops OK now and with such a low mileage car, you probably do not need a new master cylinder but do need to change the brake fluid (which involves bleeding the brakes also).

Changing the brake rotors requires the use of the proper size allen wrench and a medium size adjustable (crescent) wrench. You will also want to remove, clean, and re-grease the wheel bearings.

Changing the brake pads requires the use of a pair of pliers, a small diameter punch, a hammer, and a brake pad spreader or large "c" clamp, or a very large pry bar that can be used to push the caliper piston back into the caliper bore.

You are probably looking at $100 to buy the tools if you do not have access to them.

If you do not have prior mechanical experience, I would recommend you go the professional route. Brakes are too important to take a chance- both to you, your family, and other drivers.

First... no need to get under the dash for a MC change... that's only for the booster, or non power brake mc's...

second, I've never been able to use a c clamp on the MB calipers... they are fixed opposing calipers, so noplace for a c clamp. just a big screwdriver is sufficient.


third, to push out the pins, a nail works fine.

fourth, if you do it ONE wheel at a time it's fairly simple to do. EXCEPT for the front rotors.

they are a pain for the first timer! you need a QUALITY 8mm impact allen socket, or a few quality allen keys and a lot of patience!
being a northern car... figure bolts and parts could be rust seized. allow time for aerokroil or PB blaster to soak in! and clean the allen bolt heads EXTREMELY WELL before you attempt to loosen them! you've been warned.

if you start at the rear, one wheel at a time, it's simple. odds are good you will not need rotors at all. the pads are simple. remove pins, slide the pistons back with screwdriver, pull pads, insert new, put pins back, done.
changing the hoses are a bit more difficult. firmly grasp the 11mm flare nut with a PROPER FLARE WRENCH, and hold the 14mm hose fitting with a good tight open end, and loosen the flare nut, let the fluid drain a while, and pull the clip holding the hose into the frame. unscrew the other end of the hose from the caliper, then put in the new hose, caliper end first, then the flare end. loosen the bleeder screw on the caliper, and let the fluid and air bubble out of there until only fluid is left. tighten it up, and go on to the next one.

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If your brake is not spongy, you probably do not need a new master cylinder.

If your rotors are not warped, you may not need new rotors. If your foot feels pretty smooth when braking, no warping. If you feel a wobble or on/off sensation when you brake that means the rotors are warped and the brake pads are telegraphing the warpage.

If your wheels are not heated up after a short drive, your calipers are not seized and you probably do not need new calipers. If a piston is seized on a caliper, it will generally press the pad against the rotor all the time causing friction heat. Very easy to tell - just feel each wheel, one at a time, and see if any one is significantly hotter than the other. It is unlikely you have four seized calipers.

That leaves the brake pads which are the easiest to do of all. Also bleeding is quite easy if you have a helper to pump the brakes.

Therefore if nothing seems to be wrong above, I would start with the brake pads. You can definitely do them yourself. Follow the directions from the guys on the forum about jackstands, etc and be safe. And enjoy the satisfaction of having done it yourself.

John is 100% correct on the MC. Brain cramp on that one. I am used to have to change out both. My bad. And yes, a few tools can be improvised and no quality relative to the repair is compromised. Good catch John.

May as well get used to doing what you can yourself. It is the only way you will build confidence.

Also in far to many cases the garages charges are simply ridiculous. Also since you have probably not inspected the brakes in detail it may even have had them done not long before you purchased the car.

Only replacing what is needed as you will find another place for the saved dollars down the road. Plus your actual parts cost per item will be far less usually.

All us guys that do our own brakes basically had our first time remember. On a scale of difficulty it is very moderate. Basically older cars are not a good garage proposition for several reasons anyways.

Usually a guy should not own an older car if he uses paid for services other than perhaps what is beyond his skill potential.

There are thousands of guides out there on how to do brakes and inspect them. May as well get your hands dirty and leave your wallet far less molested. Also you can replace say what is required on the rear brakes first. Then do the front brakes a little later.

I forgot just how bad garages where until I had a safety check done on my old Honda this winter. They detected a slightly worn tie rod end. I thought what the hell I am here anyways and will let them do it so I do not have to come back after I do it.

It is a pretty simple half hour process. Well the bill was 175.00 and I could have done it in the same half hour for about thirty dollars. Now if in retirement I make about three hundred dollars an hour it would be a fair exchange. Unfortunatly I do not.





It was just a reminder to stay away from garages again. The place was not even a known clip joint. To think that you are considering walking into a garage and telling them to replace everything basically in the brakes could create an interesting bill.

Also any quote you get can be exceeded and they have the mechanics lien act on their side. Lowball price to get your car inside their doors is common.

For example one of the wives friends called as her engine blew up in her kia SUV last week. Apparently a lot of them are failing from the last several years production and she was over the milage guarantee.

She took it to a garage and they wanted 7K to install another used engine. I suggested she contact kia for a new engine installed or perhaps a factory rebuilt. Kia is not so much into good warranty relations overall anyways because those engines are factory defects. Many cannot even make it to the end of warranty.

I also would (and do) perform my own work. One reason is that I take my time where a shop invariably "tries to beat book". My experience is that the difference between shops and DIY supposedly don't need to research every little task because they've done them before. Unfortunately, many mechanics should research and are essentially grease monkeys with wrenches and are incompetent.

Example: A shop gave me what I thought was a decent price for a clutch, rear main change and transfer case reseal on my 00 diesel Ram. It was cold outside and I didn't want to be dragging that big transmission around on the ground in the gravel by myself. I gave the shop an OE rear main and Southbend clutch complete with new fly wheel and clutch hydros. Those are all well known quality parts. I also gave them the relevant pages from the FSM and discussed my research on installing the rear main DRY. I got the truck back and was surprised to see oil under the engine while buying fuel on a 1000 mi trip.

I managed to get back home without totaling my engine and the owner stood behind the work. He did want to charge me 1/2 hr because "I didn't tell him to put a new gasket in the transfer case tail housing". They did not offer to pay (and in fact refused to pay) for my lost oil, risk to engine or even my time at the shop showing them how it was still leaking AFTER their work. Note, that I did not tell them what seals to use or replace on the transfer case. It was more like "while you have it on the bench, what would it cost to stop it from leaking"?

I had the local indy install a ball joint when I handed him cleaned and degreased steering knuckles for the SD. He is Mercedes trained, has all of the old and almost obsolete tools. He gave me the knuckles back with joints installed perfectly. He even painted the bottom of the ball joint to match the steering knuckle. Unless you have a mechanic as good as the indy, do it yourself.

You could rent a car cheaper than paying the mechanic for shoddy work in the event that you run into problems. Youtube has lots of info on brakes and we can walk you through most things online.

__________________
85SD 240K & stopped counting painted, putting bac together. 84SD 180,000. sold to a neighbor and member here but I forget his handle. The 84 is much improved from when I had it. 85TD beginning to repair to DD status. Lots of stuff to do.

I agree to own one of these older M.B. you should have pretty good mechanical ability or they could turn into a big money pit. I would not let a garage do a job on my car unless I have a ballpark figure of cost. More then likely all you might need are pads if the shop replaced all the items mentioned the cost could be in the hundreds but they might replace things that do not need to be. The shop should be able to give you an estimate for repair if not find another shop or get the tools learn and do it yourself.This site has many knowledgeable often more knowledgeable then you would find at a dealer and very willing to help fellow members.

Where are you located? maybe there is a shop around you that one of us could point you to also....

ngarover: I'm in north Jersey, not that far from NYC. This all such great information to chew on - thank you all.

I do think I could do this, and the more I investigate and read/watch, the more I'm feeling this. And of course, I did buy this old car knowing that I would need to learn how to maintain it. I brought it to a shop because I wanted to learn what a mechanic thought was wrong with it, from bumper to bumper. I learned a few useful things, like taillight leak, that I'm addressing myself. Other than the brakes, a little steering adjustment, and some things I don't quite understand yet (idler arm?) the car was deemed to be in pretty good shape.

I have an estimate, and it is fairly transparent and large. The shop says that all of those things listed in the original post need to be replaced - not me. The parts are quoted as double what they would cost me, and the labor (though not broken out by hour) seems to be estimated around 10 hours over 2 days or so. So - you do the math, its insanely expensive. I don't need an expert to tell me it's too much to throw into this car if I have alternatives.

In laymen's terms my problems are thus: You have to really push hard (though they don't feel like they've lost all power) and the the car pulls to the left. I really don't know if they are mushy - or what that feels like, but the pedal travel feels fairly normal to me. I recently drove a 79 mercedes and the brakes felt great - so I'm sure there is something pretty significant that needs sorting.

Would you all recommending starting with the front or the rear (if I wanted to tackle a pair at a time - that way I'd know I'd have some functioning brake in the mix should I make a mistake)

thanks again
-a

kuene
With the engine off does the peddle feel different
after pumping several times?
It should get more difficult to depress, as
your vacuum boost is used up.
You have mentioned vacuum leaks, and if severe
enough they will effect your power brake booster
which runs off of vacuum.

Do not let a shop work on this car, learn how to fix it yourself.