w123 w126 or w210? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

dieselbenz25 · #1 02-05-2017, 08:36 PM

I am looking into getting another mercedes since i sold my 240d. I am trying to decide if i want another w123 or if I want to try the 126 or 210 neither of which I've owned! I currently have a w124 om606. great car. wanted to see what other diesel enthusiasts think

any pros and cons considering the three different chassis?

jay_bob · #2 02-05-2017, 08:45 PM

Well if you find a 98 or 99 210 you will have the same engine as your 124, totally unleashed with a turbo. Much more refined systems. You will have side airbags (98 up front only, 99 all 4 doors), more safety equipment, tighter body, much better interior fit and finish.

Steering in a 210 is rack and pinion, instead of the older recirculating ball system found in the 123/124/126. Night and day in the steering response.

Just watch out for the rust on the 210, one of the weak points. They tried a new environmentally friendly paint process, and it did not provide the corrosion protection they expected.

I have both a 124 and a 210 so ask away...

Junkman · #3 02-05-2017, 08:53 PM

I like the 126 but will get a 123 with a 617 if given a chance. I promised my wife no projects unless current are finished or sold.

I'd also like a 96 4x4 ford,with a Cummins 12 valve. I'm long wa,off

tjts1 · #4 02-05-2017, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay_bob

Well if you find a 98 or 99 210 you will have the same engine as your 124, totally unleashed with a turbo. Much more refined systems.

A 96 and 97 W210 non turbo will be smog exempt which is a nice thing to have in California considering some of the recent smog check issues that popped up on this forum. A 97 will also have a 722.6 which makes the non turbo engine much more usable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay_bob

You will have side airbags (98 up front only, 99 all 4 doors), more safety equipment, tighter body, much better interior fit and finish.

My 97 has front side air bags.

The ergonomics and climate control is much nicer on the W210. The interior also feels much larger than the W124 although weirdly the W210 has less usable trunk space. As far as driving feel, they are very different cars. I like both for different reasons.

dieselbenz25 · #5 02-05-2017, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay_bob

Well if you find a 98 or 99 210 you will have the same engine as your 124, totally unleashed with a turbo. Much more refined systems. You will have side airbags (98 up front only, 99 all 4 doors), more safety equipment, tighter body, much better interior fit and finish.

Steering in a 210 is rack and pinion, instead of the older recirculating ball system found in the 123/124/126. Night and day in the steering response.

Just watch out for the rust on the 210, one of the weak points. They tried a new environmentally friendly paint process, and it did not provide the corrosion protection they expected.

I have both a 124 and a 210 so ask away...

Thanks for the response!

I always like hearing people's experiences. I live in california, and due to emission testing (even on diesels now!) I will be limited to getting a 96 or 97 210 (98 and newer has to be smogged)

I don't mind non turbo engines though, I think the non turbo om606 feels a lot like a gas 4 cylinder.. I can't imagine what turbo feels like! Probably a pleasure to drive.

Keeping an eye out for rust is definitely something I will look for. When I got my 95, I went ahead and replaced the engine wiring harness due to the "green" soy based wire insulation coating being completely cooked.

Have you had any major issues with your w210? I understand they have electronic throttle, which is odd to me, but if it's a reliable system, and the electronics are reliable I think i'd be leaning toward that.

sixto · #6 02-05-2017, 10:21 PM

Will this be a daily driver, hobby car, project car? Will you buy the best available or cheapest to purchase?

Sixto
83 300SD
98 E320 wagon

jay_bob · #7 02-05-2017, 11:09 PM

TJTS1 is right, the front side airbags came in with the W210 introduction in 1996. I had my head wrapped around the 98 and 99 since I have a 98 and that's what I'm familiar with. And not realizing you were in CA that a turbo engine would be a good upgrade for you.

The 96 and 97 will have almost exactly the same engine (OM606.912 vs OM606.910) as your 95 124. The only difference is the electronic control of the injector pump rack. From my experience and what I've observed from others, the system is quite reliable and straightforward to diagnose. It's one of the few systems on the car that you can diagnose with a standard cheap OBDII reader.

Recall that 1996 was the first year of OBDII and so MB only put the bare minimum out on the OBDII connector - the engine management codes that were required for pollution control diagnosis and rudimentary transmission codes. Everything else has a data line going to its respective module and is accessed through MB proprietary tools on the 38 pin plug under the hood. Which by the way is the same physical connector as the 38 pin on your 1995 but the electrical connections are different.

If you are in CA then yes it will probably benefit you to stay with a 96 or 97. Probably the best to find a 97 since there were some first year bugs in the 96 and also they introduced the electronically controlled 5 speed with lockup TC 722.6 transmission on the 97. I think there were some late production 96s with the 722.6 but I am not certain of this. The 722.6 is a huge step forward from a mechanically controlled 4 speed 722.4. It does neat tricks like cutting the fuel right before an up shift, so you can barely feel it shift. Of course every modern car today does this but it was high tech for 1996.

Forum member Jeremy5848 has both a 95 and a 96 E300 so he has even more direct experience than I do on the differences between the two cars. And he's in CA so he's more attuned to the regulations out there. (In SC if it goes down the road in one piece, more or less, and doesn't emulate a crop duster, it's good to go. No emissions or safety inspections here.)

To tjts1's other point, I think the change from recirculating ball to rack and pinion steering is the biggest change that would affect driving feel. The front and back suspensions of the W210 are very similar to the W124 so the effect on handling would be minimal between the models. Also, the electronically controlled transmission may have something to do with the difference in driving characteristics.

I am reasonably certain that the 210 does not suffer from the biodegradable wire syndrome. They just decided to make the whole car biodegradable instead (hence the rust problems).

How does the smog test work in CA for the 1998+ models? Is it possible for a car in good repair to pass this test? I will say that my car with 240k miles on it still runs great and only smokes when pushed really hard, like pedal to the floor acceleration.

dieselbenz25 · #8 02-06-2017, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixto

Will this be a daily driver, hobby car, project car? Will you buy the best available or cheapest to purchase?

Sixto
83 300SD
98 E320 wagon

My current 95 e300 is my daily driver, but would be replaced by a w210, or a w123/w126 would probably be a back up car. I would actually prefer to pay more and get one that has been better maintained. I've seen 2 96' e300d recently one is 1400 obo (because of running biodiesel svo and needed all the lines replaced, the other is asking 2500 but the car isn't so hot cosmetically) the most desirable would be a 97 I saw that looks really clean but the asking price is 3,500.

dieselbenz25 · #9 02-06-2017, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay_bob

TJTS1 is right, the front side airbags came in with the W210 introduction in 1996. I had my head wrapped around the 98 and 99 since I have a 98 and that's what I'm familiar with. And not realizing you were in CA that a turbo engine would be a good upgrade for you.

The 96 and 97 will have almost exactly the same engine (OM606.912 vs OM606.910) as your 95 124. The only difference is the electronic control of the injector pump rack. From my experience and what I've observed from others, the system is quite reliable and straightforward to diagnose. It's one of the few systems on the car that you can diagnose with a standard cheap OBDII reader.

Recall that 1996 was the first year of OBDII and so MB only put the bare minimum out on the OBDII connector - the engine management codes that were required for pollution control diagnosis and rudimentary transmission codes. Everything else has a data line going to its respective module and is accessed through MB proprietary tools on the 38 pin plug under the hood. Which by the way is the same physical connector as the 38 pin on your 1995 but the electrical connections are different.

If you are in CA then yes it will probably benefit you to stay with a 96 or 97. Probably the best to find a 97 since there were some first year bugs in the 96 and also they introduced the electronically controlled 5 speed with lockup TC 722.6 transmission on the 97. I think there were some late production 96s with the 722.6 but I am not certain of this. The 722.6 is a huge step forward from a mechanically controlled 4 speed 722.4. It does neat tricks like cutting the fuel right before an up shift, so you can barely feel it shift. Of course every modern car today does this but it was high tech for 1996.

Forum member Jeremy5848 has both a 95 and a 96 E300 so he has even more direct experience than I do on the differences between the two cars. And he's in CA so he's more attuned to the regulations out there. (In SC if it goes down the road in one piece, more or less, and doesn't emulate a crop duster, it's good to go. No emissions or safety inspections here.)

To tjts1's other point, I think the change from recirculating ball to rack and pinion steering is the biggest change that would affect driving feel. The front and back suspensions of the W210 are very similar to the W124 so the effect on handling would be minimal between the models. Also, the electronically controlled transmission may have something to do with the difference in driving characteristics.

I am reasonably certain that the 210 does not suffer from the biodegradable wire syndrome. They just decided to make the whole car biodegradable instead (hence the rust problems).

How does the smog test work in CA for the 1998+ models? Is it possible for a car in good repair to pass this test? I will say that my car with 240k miles on it still runs great and only smokes when pushed really hard, like pedal to the floor acceleration.

So glad I asked here, there is definitely a bunch of information here. I knew 97 had a 5 speed transmission, but had no clue as to the other aspects. I can't imagine using an OBDII tool on a diesel.. I've never found them to be too helpful in gas cars, but I've worked on very few gas cars so that could be a factor

The climate control is better on the w210? is the air conditioning system more reliable? One of the things I dislike about the w124 CC is that defroster setting is always max heat! I think that's a design flaw.

The w124 ( and even 123 when the suspension is upkept) have great handling and road stability in my experience.. better than a lot of newer cars I've driven which usually feel really flimsy. So that sounds great about the 210

about rust, the w123 and 124 pretty much don't rust here hopefully that would be a benefit to the 210. I read they were trying to use a more "green" water based paint, or something like that. Seems to me a more environmentally friendly vehicle is one that can drive at least 300k in good working order before having to be replaced, that's another topic though lol.

the smog test here is mainly visual with no actual emission testing below is taken from the DMV.CA website :

--"The diesel smog test will not include the emissions test portion of the regular inspection. There will be no tailpipe emissions inspection either.

Diesel cars and trucks are not driven on a dynamometer during the smog test either.

The diesel smog test will focus on a visual inspection of your vehicle's emissions/smog components, a system check of the On Board Diagnostics (OBD II) system, a visual smoke check for excessive black (carbon) smoke, and an EVAP functional test. Diesel cars and trucks which fail the diesel smog test will have to get their vehicles repaired at a diesel vehicle repair shop before retesting."

it doesn't sound too stringent, actually sounds easier than the gas car tests, but I am still a little leery!

tjts1 · #10 02-06-2017, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay_bob

I am reasonably certain that the 210 does not suffer from the biodegradable wire syndrome.

I found the biodegradable wiring falling apart inside the 97 headlight housings. I was not a happy camper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay_bob

How does the smog test work in CA for the 1998+ models? Is it possible for a car in good repair to pass this test? I will say that my car with 240k miles on it still runs great and only smokes when pushed really hard, like pedal to the floor acceleration.

OBD2 code check. CEL ON = automatic fail, any incomplete drive cycle also fails. Visual inspection: any modifications on the engine without a CARB number automatic fail. Cat delete etc again, fail. Also a visible smoke test. Thats how I ended up with a 97 otherwise I would've been shopping for a turbo.

Jeremy5848 · #11 02-06-2017, 12:46 AM

My '96 E300 is a quieter car, wife and I prefer it for traveling. The '95 E300 is more fun to work on since it's less electronic but the W210 has been ultra-reliable and there's rarely anything to do with it anyway (now at 312,000 miles and waiting for MBNA to send the second award badge, for 500,000 km). The engine is completely original; I had the valve cover off to check chain stretch at 270,000 miles (barely any, maybe 1°). In addition to a rear subframe, like that in the 124, the 210 also has a front subframe, resulting in more isolation, hence the quieter ride. POs took care of the initial teething problems; only thing that might be nice is the electronic 5-speed.

Jeremy

tjts1 · #12 02-06-2017, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieselbenz25

So glad I asked here, there is definitely a bunch of information here. I knew 97 had a 5 speed transmission, but had no clue as to the other aspects. I can't imagine using an OBDII tool on a diesel.. I've never found them to be too helpful in gas cars, but I've worked on very few gas cars so that could be a factor

I found it very useful on the 97. One thing a good OBD tool can do is show you live sensor data. The W210 uses an electronic throttle angle sensor under the hood connected with a cable to the gas pedal. The OBD2 reader displays the throtle angle in %. with slow application of the throttle I found that there was a lot of slack in that cable. With the OBD2 tool in hand I adjusted the cable until it displayed 1%, then backed it off slightly to 0%. The result was much more responsive throttle.

Another example was diagnosing a weak alternator (low votage for several minutes after GPs turned off) vacuum leak to one one of the flaps in the long intake runner and figured out a defeat for the EGR. Also occasionally it throws a P0200 bad engine shut off valve code. I just delete it and ignore.

Now I'm using the Torque app on my phone with a $12 ELM327 bluetooth device. Works even better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieselbenz25

The climate control is better on the w210? is the air conditioning system more reliable? One of the things I dislike about the w124 CC is that defroster setting is always max heat! I think that's a design flaw.

In my opinion its superior in a lot of ways. Besides the obvious dual climate zones etc, it has its own built in diagnostic codes that can be accessed through a hidden menu and it allows you to switch on the auxiliary electric fans remotely.
Automatic Climate Control Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) Memory - Mercedes-Benz Forum

dieselbenz25 · #13 02-06-2017, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

I found the biodegradable wiring falling apart inside the 97 headlight housings. I was not a happy camper.

OBD2 code check. CEL ON = automatic fail, any incomplete drive cycle also fails. Visual inspection: any modifications on the engine without a CARB number automatic fail. Cat delete etc again, fail. Also a visible smoke test. Thats how I ended up with a 97 otherwise I would've been shopping for a turbo.

yeah any light on means an automatic fail.. sounds like a PITA! I like the idea of the turbo version, but would rather have one that doesn't ever have to be smogged.

also I read about the climate control diagnostic which is really cool!

ROLLGUY · #14 02-06-2017, 10:00 PM

I would not be afraid of smog testing a '98 or newer, it is really no big deal. I had a '95 years ago, and loved it. A few years later I got a '98 and loved it even more. I won't go back to an N/A. I've even gone a step further an purchased a W211 E320 CDI. Once you own a turbo W210 or better, you won't go back to the N/A. Again, having to smog it every other year is well worth it. Also, the turbo fuel mileage is not much worse than an N/A. You can expect 28+ combined with the turbo car.

Diseasel300 · #15 02-07-2017, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieselbenz25

One of the things I dislike about the w124 CC is that defroster setting is always max heat! I think that's a design flaw.

Ah, but is it a design flaw, or a perhaps a flawed preconceived notion on how the defrost is designed to work?

In the 126 (124 is similar in operation), the "Defrost" button is there to quickly melt ice and snow off the front window, thus max heat + max fan.

Unlike most other cars, the climate control will send part of the air stream to the defrost vents when heating. It has some sort of algorithm in it to adjust how much of the air is sent up there vs the various other vents in the system.

The owner's manual describes the operation and I initially thought it was overkill and seriously ridiculous until I got used to driving my 126 in cold weather. I never had to hit defrost or adjust anything at all and got to the point that driving my normal car and other people's cars annoyed me because the front window kept fogging up!

Those Germans and their engineering...