valve job? - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

vwnate1 · #61 01-21-2018, 06:42 PM

When you take the so drained sump down and show me the total lack of silt and settled crud, I'll believe this .

Yes, it's far easier but don't kind your self about the lack of dirt/crud left behind .

Diseasel300 · #62 01-21-2018, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funola

In fact, if you look in the FSM, the recommended oil change method is vacuum.

I should imagine that has a lot more to do with saving labor costs from removing the sound encapsulation panels than it does with a more thorough job. It's a hell of a lot quicker to pump the oil out through the dipstick than to zip off screws, drop a panel, then fiddle with the drain plug.

Your vacuum setup is also not the typical "topsider", and very doubtful that the OP will wind up with a setup like that.

allenying · #63 01-21-2018, 10:25 PM

well, today I drained hot oil via the plug, with the feedback here, I could not be more patient after the shop told me it was gasoline oil.

i used this stupid flow tools oil change container (attachment) because it seemed to make sense to drain straight into a container to bring back for recycling, and they didn't have just a regular pan. but the pan portion of the container is so shallow, and the side of the road in Brooklyn is not flat, and it is also filthy, so not fun to lay on, so it was impossible not to spill maybe half or one cup worth and make a mess of towels/rags etc.

also that container doesn't make sense because then it's covered in oil, which isn't something I want to put in my trunk to bring to recycling, but whatever I got it all done with Rotella T6 5W-40 full synthetic. copper washer changed, oil filter and O-ring changed, filter housing stem O rings left for now, still have good oil pressure on start.

-

the topsider they say takes 45 minutes, so that is not a fast strong sucking… but let me ask you guys this, does the dipstick tube not point straight into the oil pan? and is the oil pan's drain plug not on the side wall? as photo 13 here shows:
PeachPartsWiki: Replacing the Oil Separator Check Valve
(also attached)

it seems like if you put a straw all the way into a drink cup, you will get more out than if you poke a hole in the side of the cup...

i'm not trying to defend the vacuum method, i cancelled the topsider order for now, i'm trying to be objective. I believe what you guys are saying, I just wish the leftover sludge was proven by someone who has been using a topsider for years, as it is still appealing for dirty city roadside oil changes. i know vwnate has seen sludgy engines, but that doesn't mean they were all slow vacuum changed...

funola if you had to choose between a 45 min slow vacuum vs the drain plug... what would you do?

faster oil velocity does make sense. next time I will be able to plan for it better. get a better pan, drive to somewhere flatter and cleaner, have a separate empty jug ready (I didn't fully use up the 2.5 gallon T6 jug) this time i was just like, ok i gotta get this bad oil out asap.

thanks again.

Diseasel300 · #64 01-21-2018, 10:51 PM

I have the larger version of the same pan you used. Size matters! There's a bit of skill involved in guessing where the oil will shoot out with a side-discharge pan. I generally start with the edge of the pan just under the plug, with the pan pointing away from the plug. Once the stream slows down, back it up just a little bit and never spill a drop. When done, use a couple paper towels to wipe out the top of the pan and take it in for recycling.

Interesting that the 617 drain plug is set up like that. The 603 and M117 engines I routinely service have a cast oil sump with a depression cast in them for the drain plug, actually forming a channel lower than the bottom of the sump to drain out.

Drain velocity does matter, the drain plug takes only a couple minutes. Funola's approach with the vacuum charged "topsider" setup also removes the oil quickly. 45 minutes for the manual topsider is way too slow. The engine would be cool by the time it finished!

allenying · #65 01-21-2018, 10:56 PM

i know people have mixed feelings about kent bergsma, but his video here shows the topsider vacuum tube goes in to the bottom,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65MMnubY4DA
screengrab also attached

these were the kinds of reviews that made me want one, not reviews provided by topsider.

next time if i do drain plug, i might just cut open the oil pan container and be prepared with an empty jug.
it wasn't that the oil pour missing the pan, it was that the shallow pan overflowed immediately on the slight slant of the road, since it didn't drain into the container, the pan is nearly flat.

oil having cooled down by the end is a concern...

funola · #66 01-21-2018, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwnate1

When you take the so drained sump down and show me the total lack of silt and settled crud, I'll believe this .

Yes, it's far easier but don't kind your self about the lack of dirt/crud left behind .

What, dripping for hours with drain plug removed do not convince you that there's still oil in the pan? with my vacuum method- not one drop comes out the drain plug. That's because the dipstick tube is at a lower spot in the oil pan than the drain plug!

My charged vacuum tank setup doing a hot oil change gets more oil out than gravity drain on a 617. It sucks the oil out of the oil filter too, making it less messy to dispose.

leathermang · #67 01-21-2018, 11:14 PM

When I do an oil pan drain I pour a half quart of fresh oil into the engine.. and once that clean oil comes out I seal it up... I also change oil hot of course and pretty much at 3000 miles... very old fashioned... but I sleep well at night doing it that way...

allenying · #68 01-21-2018, 11:19 PM

the youtube review that said it took 45 minutes for his car, he also messed it up and it wasn't sucking, so it wouldn' take as long, topsider claims 8-10 minutes, i imagine it's somewhere in between...

ROLLGUY · #69 01-21-2018, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenying

i know people have mixed feelings about kent bergsma, but his video here shows the topsider vacuum tube goes in to the bottom,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65MMnubY4DA
screengrab also attached

these were the kinds of reviews that made me want one, not reviews provided by topsider.

next time if i do drain plug, i might just cut open the oil pan container and be prepared with an empty jug.
it wasn't that the oil pour missing the pan, it was that the shallow pan overflowed immediately on the slight slant of the road, since it didn't drain into the container, the pan is nearly flat.

oil having cooled down by the end is a concern...

I watched that video a month ago, and am convinced as well that the topsider method gets more oil out than just the drain plug. However, I am also concerned about the long time it takes to suck the oil through the little hose. My opinion is that BOTH methods should be employed. By that I mean to drain the oil hot the normal way, and then go back and suck out the remaining oil (yes there will be oil remaining in the pan after it stops dripping). Whenever possible, I also like to remove the lower oil cooler hose and blow compressed air through the cooler to get the oil out of it as well. I have even let the oil drain overnight. I know there is not a shop anywhere that will go through that much trouble to change the oil on one of these cars, but the extra effort is worth it to me.....Rich

Alec300SD · #70 01-22-2018, 12:27 AM

Besides changing the o-rings on the oil canister lid shaft on an oil change, I also backflush the bore of the shaft with Brakleen.

If the bore gets clogged with sludge, the bypass portion of the oil filter isn't contributiing to the fine filtration of the oil.

Bengoshi2000 · #71 01-22-2018, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funola

...violent sucking action.

I'm sorry... aspirated my morning coffee reading that. Please forgive the interruption...

Maxbumpo · #72 01-22-2018, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diseasel300

Prove it to yourself. Use the topsider, then go pull the drain plug and see what comes out. If it's dry, I'll eat my hat.

I've done exactly that test on two different engines, an OM617 and an OM60x (not sure if it was my 190D with OM601 or my 300TD with OM603). The OM617 was drained of oil (hot engine) sucked through the oil dipstick tube, and then I removed the drain plug. Nothing came out. Left a paper towel under the open drain overnight, and got a couple drops. The OM60x produced a couple drops immediately, but then nothing for several minutes, so I didn't leave that overnight but replaced the drain plug and went on with the oil change. I suspect that a few more drops may have come out if I waited overnight, but the point was well made: suction does the job as well as or better than drain plug. I used Mobil 1 synthetic in both cars, which is notorious for a slow drain time back into the sump.

So, I wouldn't expect you to eat the whole hat, but maybe take a bite?

ROLLGUY · #73 01-22-2018, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxbumpo

................

So, I wouldn't expect you to eat the whole hat, but maybe take a bite?

Video, or it didn't happen.

Maxbumpo · #74 01-22-2018, 11:52 AM

In my experience, the suction method is superior for the following reasons:

(1) Don't have to go under the car.

(2) Removes as much if not more than by draining.

It's the factory-approved method, I've added about 100k miles on two different 124 cars with success, and the whole purpose of detergent oil is that the contaminants are suspended _in_ the oil. If one is worried about trash in the oil pan that doesn't come out with suction but only draining, OK fine drain the oil and look for trash. In my experience, I've never found any, this is over several decades of changing my own oil. If you sleep better at night, having inspected the drained oil for trash, great. If you truly want to know the health of your engine, send off a sample of used engine oil for lab analysis. I'd put far more faith in lab results than in eye-balling the oil drained from the sump.

Maxbumpo · #75 01-22-2018, 11:58 AM

Last point. I used the lab analysis method to determine that I could safely go extended oil change intervals (10k miles) on my cars, which means annual oil changes on Mobil 1 synthetic oil. Once a year, it would not kill me to get under the car and drain from the plug in the pan, but I really like being able to stay in my street cloths, simply put on some rubber gloves and grab the tools, and be done with the oil change about 30-45 minutes later.

So it really comes down to personal choice, in my book.

I REALLY like Funola's set up, I've got an old R-22 can that I'm saving to make a rig of my own, I need to buy a vacuum pump and get on with it. Right now I've cobbled together an old electric sump pump with some PVC tubing, that's been working well for about ten years so far.