FOUND!!! 190D 5-speed. Swap into w123?
 

Hey guys,

Been loving my 83' 240D 4-spd. Put about 10k miles on her in almost a year.

Ever since day 1 the high RPM's at 65-70 have bugged me, and I researched countless hours for a solution. From bigger tires to diff swaps and foreign transmission swaps, I read about all of it.

I did come across how some people said the w201 5-spd manual may fit, but never got a definite answer. Of course finding a factory w123 5-spd is not only nearly impossible, it'd also probably be worth more than my car. Well I found a 190D with the so-desired 5-spd. Owner says the car runs, and has various issues. Its an 85' and he wants $1000.

My question is, IF the trans is good and all that good stuff, WILL this transmission [I]easily[I] fit into my w123? By easily I mean basically unbolt and bolt in. No extensive cutting or adapting. I'm guessing the transmission is a 717.410. If it wont, anybody interested in a 1985 190D 5-spd??

Sorry for the long post.
Thanks

An OM601 190D transmission will not bolt up to your OM616. The OM61x and OM60x engines have starters on opposite sides.

Thanks for the quick reply. I read something about having a machine shop make a custom housing for the starter and all kinds of other extensive and expensive modifications, and thats not for me. Guess I'll just keep wearing my earplugs :)

Heres the ad if anyone wants a 5-spd 190D!

https://houston.craigslist.org/cto/d/1985-mercedes-190d-4cyl-diesel/6463768501.html

It would probably be more doable to swap the engine and transmission together into your 240.

From all accounts I've read, putting the 3.07 diff in a 240D works just fine as long as you don't live in like San Francisco and spend your entire day doing turbo nuclear hill stops.

Bingo
http://www.ikonengold.de/diverses/w123_om601_6511.jpg
www.forum-w123.net :: Archiv :: Kurzbericht zum W123.5 200D ....

that's a euro spec 190d. that Would be a shame to cut it up for your 240d and just waste it. a rare car that's become rarer along with the rest of the w124s and w201s.

I'm in houston but not looking for another project. Looks like a decent deal though.

You should check out the JYs in California. So much rare rust free Euro spec metal meets the crusher on a daily basis and nobody gives it a second thought. Years ago it was W201 cosworths and diesels, long wheel base W123s and R107 500SL. More recently w124 500E. It's all worthless junk after a while.
500E in the junkyard - Mercedes-Benz Forum

that's a shame to hear. I love the cars. I'll likely try to bring a few from California to here just for the rust free chassis.

Allegedly the locating pins line up just fine, so you can strap them together and then drill new holes for mounting bolts in the bell housing. You also need to cut a hols for the starter. I saw pictures of one a guy did, it was a lot of work but he made it fit.

The Fueling system and the expensive PARTS that go with it is what usually brings the gasser cars down to the scrapper ,this combined with a trannie issue is a certain ender to it being a feasable DD .Its the collectors and experienced DIYers that only gleam at these as a possible saver .This one is a good project BUT more pictures and background would be needed before any drive out would be my advice .The reality is even at $1000.it would be dbl that to make it road worthy and safe.The rust could have its way over yrs since it looks like a grass sitter.The over all bet is the 5 spd makes it worth the drive out ,the motor running is a big sign its at least been maintained to some degree.Ive had this combo and the vehicle is just right as a commuter,40 hwy and the looks are modern.If the injectors are leaking it will need new seal rings,if you do have these leaks expect to replace the fuel lines,old ones never come off easy without messing them up.Brakes would be another cost ,then if theirs a clutch in need of repair$$$.A real diyer double car.IF YOUR LOOKING FOR A 4SPD THEIRS A FEW OUT THEIR IN TEXAS ,I would keep your auto and just buy a 4spd 240d .

I have a W201 5spd transmission free for the taking. Northern MN. Not interested in shipping it. Weak synco's, but I drove it for a couple of years that way until a deer happened.

Will the W123 4-speed shift lever and rods work with a W201 5-speed? Seems like more custom work than bellhousing adapter and drive shaft length tweaking.

Sixto
98 E320s sedan and wagon

Damn, I'd love to have that euro spec 190d even just as a parts car, but I'd get it going if it wasn't a total basket-case or rust bucket.. crap,and it's got the manual climate control!

No EGR also.. I'm digging those euro wheels!!

The wheel covers are plastic ,rather common over seas back then ,here they look rare.I beleive you can throw a set of 240d hubcaps and will fit for something different looking.

Whoa. Didn't expect that many replies.

Thanks for all the advice guys. Ya'll saying its a Euro-spec REALLY makes me wanna buy it and at the very least attempt to get it running. I have a thing for Euro-spec cars, especially old Mercedes. I'm pretty happy with my OM616, 275,000 miles and it seems strong. IDK, maybe I'll investigate it and become that guy with all the cars laying around.

Any big tips when looking at one of these w201's? I'll research the crap out of them like I did with my 240.

Having seen several, and owning one, I will say that the OM601 seems to have a less robust frame than the 123. I don't overload it, but the car I have runs well, is just not as peppy as a MT with a 2.5. I'd be interested in getting a 190D MT or a complete 2.5 engine+MT+drive shaft if the price was reasonable.

Its a much easier process than you think. the transmissions break down very easily, and you can make a simple jig to swap the bell housing bolt patterns between the 4 and 5 speeds, which weld pretty well.

Its a lot of work, but none of it impossible and fairly straight forward.

However having said that, its not worth it for a 240. Not enough power, can barely pull in 5th, even with a stock diff. If you had a turbo 617 300D id say go for it. Don't waste your time doing it for a 616.

Sounds great!


I am actually planning to drive to CA with a one-ton box truck to pick up a number of items I would want.


I am also looking for rear doors for wagons and a hatch back, and W123 front fenders for three cars. Plus drive trains in usable shape.


If there's a map of junkyards for southern CA (my friend lives in Redlands) that would be a good thing to get a hold of.

?Which is it?

its a much easier process than you think but still requires a lot of work. Happy?

You need to be able to build a jig, you need to be able to break down a gearbox(s), and you need to be able to weld aluminum or have a resource that can weld aluminum.

Having said that, its certainly not impossible and can be done fairly simply, therefore its an easier process than many think

IF one were to mate this trans up to the 616...

Would that provide an OVERDRIVE ?

or just divide up the available rpms by five instead of four ?

717.410 should be a .83 or thereabouts overdrive, but a 240 will barely be able to pull it. Now if he were to grab a diff out of a 116/115 with a high ratio, it might work a lot better

While I appreciate that the rpms are up there at highway speeds..
I am sure MB spent a lot of time making sure the power curve of the engine matched all the other parts of the car...
Often it is the lack of sound deadening which makes it annoying ....
My 240d with manual trans.... if driving at night and I am not watching the speedometer.... loves to run 76 mph.....

leathermang, yeah like JB3 said it should be an overdrive 'box. That's what I was going for.

Here's my original reasoning for wanting lower RPM;

These cars were built for the American market at a time the speed limit was 55 mph. Now I know that Mercedes engineers knew what they were doing, and I know that driving 65-70 won't destroy these engines, but my car's engine, and a lot of others, were built with the intention of running at 55 mph, which is 2623 rpm (26 inch tires). With a 5-spd 5th gear ratio of 0.83 at 65 mph, the rpm's are at 2573. So not only can I go 10 mph faster and get the same rpm, I actually get 50 rpm lower. That was my goal. Cruise at a lower rpm at the same speed. Now that some of ya'll are saying the 616 with its mighty 65(ish) hp wont pull the car at 2573 rpm down the highway, I will probably do something different. Also, if Mercedes never built a stock 240D om616 with a 5-spd, Euro or not, to me it would be a good idea not to try it. Like I said Mercedes knew what they were doing.

Someone suggested a diff swap, and I've looked into that.
The car has the 3.69, and 26 inch tires.

3.69 @65 - 3100 rpm
3.07 @65 - 2579 rpm

So if the car wont pull the 5-spd, it wouldn't pull a 3.07 diff in 4th gear. Right? Itd be the same engine speed at the same road speed, now you've only ruined your acceleration in 1st,2nd,3rd, and you'll be wearing out the clutch faster.

I guess the only other option is to get a 3.46 from a 300 n/a or a 3.58 from a gasser. Heres the respective rpms, same parameters;

2906 rpm
3007 rpm

Neither of these give me the drop in rpm that I'm looking for, so I guess there's really no way to get a 616 down to those low rpm's and it still be driveable.

I will just find a 617 turbo, which is what I want anyway (who doesn't :D) with its 3.07 diff, and pair it to my 4-spd. Sorry for the small book. Just my thoughts on it.

BTW, 26 inch tires from the standard 24 gave me a drop in rpm of about 250, and makes the car look a little better in my opinion. It also corrected my speedo!

the result of the .8 overdrive with a stock 616 will be endless shifting from 5th to 4th for anything but perfect flat or downhill situations. This was my experience. Every mild grade, or even gusts of wind would impact its ability to maintain speed in overdrive.

It was unfortunately far more annoying than pleasurable, though it was great to have that extra gear occasionally, it did not rock my world in the way I had hoped.

Now the .8 overdrive behind a 617 is a whole different ball of wax!

Check out the 2 PyP yards in Wilmington.

1232 Blinn Ave, Wilmington, CA 90744
and
1903 N Blinn Ave, Wilmington, CA 90744

These yards are YUGE! and well stocked.
https://i.imgur.com/B8txlPH.jpg

Row 52 can tell you whats in stock at any yard in SoCal before you go on a wild goose chase.
http://row52.com/

1. I am not sure MB actually changed their drive ratios due to the US speed limits...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_the_United_States_by_jurisdiction

2. Because a diesel loves a turbo charger... you are likely to get better mileage with the 300 turbo...

3. Check out the threads made by people who have put manual trans behind a turbo 300. Look closely when they mention unwanted vibrations... and note that there are ' anti vibration' modifications to the manual trans...

and I suggest you use a 300 flywheel.... since you trust MB engineers... you will understand that they put a heavier flywheel on there for a reason.

Of course that brings up the question as to why MB did not put a manual trans behind the turbo 300... many people will claim they know that answer.. but I think it has to do with the fact that the turbo does not produce much power until a certain RPM.... and the automatic allows that ramp up without having to slip the clutch....

Vibration easily solved by match balancing the flywheel with the driven plate. Lot of people made this mistake. 28lb or 38lb, go with what you can get your hands on but mark that driven plate to the crank before you take it off! Impossible to fix that mistake once youve made it.

Turbo lag is pretty much a non issue. You learn to compensate for it in about 15 minutes.

I am not sure that is correct all things considered but I can't cite the specifics .. except that the manual trans had an ' appurtenance ' attached to its outside..
and a lot of people thought that they had the trick to balancing the flywheel and later sold their cars with the vibrations still there...

The trick is match balancing, not neutral balancing. Has to be done properly. Never had a vibration problem on any of the vehicles i converted. An unknown number of 617 cranks are balanced out with the driven plate. Some are neutral, some are weighted.

I have a 84' 280CE with a 5 speed which I swapped in a OM617a into. I sent out the 300D na flywheel I got for it to be matched balance to the auto flywheel off of the motor. When I get it back, it was neutrally balanced just as the auto one was. Motor runs super smooth and it a real pleasure to drive. It still has the 3.58 rearend and pulls great once moving and cruises down the highway with ease. Wish my 300TD was as much fun to drive as the coupe is!

I wish there was a way to tell from engine code or vin which are not neutral balance. I had the same experience. Converted 4 617s to manual, 3 were neutral, and one was weighted. Im glad i went through the trouble for that one engine, otherwise i would have been screwed. I did not match balance one additional application in a non mercedes chassis using a 617, and ended up with massive vibration problems. Identified that driven plate as weighted as well, but not before i had lost the position reference on the crank.

IMO the flywheel bolt pattern is a serious design flaw. 12 positions. They could have done as other manufacturers do and made the flywheel bolt on there one way and one way only.

Yeah, I've seen GM flex plates that only go on one way. A regular circular pattern is statically and dynamically balanced, but you'd think that they'd figure out something and use a long compound word to describe it. I think in japanese, 'poka yokeru' is literally 'idiot proof'.

I know where there is a 616 5speed euro car for sale if that interests you, it has all the euro bumpers and cloth as well.

Search my posts for the info or email me.

Good luck on the search, that 190 is pretty cool IMHO

The Mercedes OM352 which is used in the Unimogs are this way, crank bolts only line up one way.

I think the OM603 is the same way. When I replaced the rear crank seal, I noticed there was no need to mark the flex plate because it could only go on in one position.