I have to push the clutch in all the way to the floor before I can switch gears without grinding the gears.

I've replaced the master(leaking) and slave clutch cylinder and bled the clutch using the front right brake caliper.

I'm not sure if the clutch has been replaced (350k miles so far).

Does this sound like the clutch is about to fail or just air in the clutch?

I've seen posts about using an oil can to push brake fluid in the slave cylinder so I may try that. Any recommendation on an oil can that works well if you tihnk it's an air problem?

Thanks,

pete

Did the far push requirement develop over a time?

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

I do believe it has become worse over time.

I also noticed a few weeks ago my brake fluid was low. I'm wondering if my brake master cylinder is leaking into the brake booster. That happened before on a 300D I had years ago.

I haven't noticed any drips under the car so I'm not sure where the brake fluid would go besides the brake booster.

Are you leaning towards are in the line or a new clutch?

Thanks,

Pete

Problem you describe is more indicative of a clutch hydraulics problem. Check the master and slave cylinders and clutch line for leaks. I'm not aware of the brake caliper bleeding for the clutch. it has its own bleeder valve. Also the line should have been replaced when the other parts were, IMO.

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If the disc was wearing out I'd expect the clutch to engage high in the travel and work in an on/off fashion vs. being able to gradually apply the clutch over a few inches of pedal travel.

Couple of questions...
Did the new slave and master change the problem?
How was the system bled?

Yes, it sounds like a hydraulic problem. Pressure bleeding may be the best way.

Good luck!!!

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I'm not able to put the car into gear until the clutch pedal is about 1 to 2 in from the floor.

I put a clear tube on the bleeder valve of both the front right side brake caliper and the slave clutch cylinder.

I opened the bleeder valves and pump the brake to bleed the clutch. I believe this is the way you are supposed to bleed the clutch.

I will attempt to bleed clutch again on Friday and post back if that resolves the problem.

I've never heard of that bleeding method. I've always bled clutches by themselves. On the MB clutch I couldn't get the air out by pumping the pedal. Had to use a pressure bleeder, and it took a while for the fluid to come out consistent with no bubbles.

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pc:

Clutch problems can be separated into two areas: 1) Mechanical, & 2) Hydraulic

Faults of a mechanical nature arise in the pressure plate, the clutch disc, the release bearing, and the release lever.
After long use the diaphragm spring of the pressure plate can either take a permanent deflection, lose one or more fingers, or both.
In the clutch disc the lining can separate, the torsional damping springs in the hub can break, and the web between hub and lining can crack.
The release bearing may either seize, or the ball bearings wear out, leading to grinding & squealing noises.
The release lever may develop cracks which lead to excess flexing of the lever.

Hydraulic faults appear as leaks, and/or air in the system, as mis-adjustment of the clutch master cylinder (M/C) push rod, and as too short a M/C push rod being installed during replacement of the M/C.

The bottom-up bleeding method is the most dependable, particularly when done with a trigger type oil can. Although the RF caliper method is shown in the FSM, it is a bit hokey at best. A good quality oil can will pump without introducing air, and will displace fluid with sufficient velocity to sweep any air up thru the M/C and into the reservoir.
Once the system is clear of air, it is important to adjust the push rod eccentric to a maximum pedal clearance (free play) of 1/4". If there is too much free play the disengagement will occur, as described, close to the floor.

I believe that is the method from the factory service manual. All that is needed is a hose and hose clamps to connect the two bleeder valves. Open the bleeder valves, pump the brakes. This forces brake fluid to circulate from the brake master cylinder (pressurizes the brake system) through the brake slave, through hose to clutch slave, through all the clutch hydraulics including clutch master and back into the brake fluid reservoir. This is pressure bleeding the clutch circuit.

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Respectfully,
/s/
M. Dillon
'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
'95 124.131 (E300) "Sapphire", 380k miles
'73 Balboa 20 "Sanctification"
Charleston SC

That's exactly what I did. I will do it again when it stops raining in Maryland.

I suspect that you've got some failure in the hydraulics. In my experience in a 123 car and a 201 car with manual transmissions, the clutch hydraulics would self bleed once all the leaks were fixed. I never had to pressure bleed. I would simply hook up all the components, fill with brake fluid, pump the pedal a few times manually to get some of the air out, and then start the car in first gear (pointed in a safe direction) and drive around the block a couple times. The vibrations from driving, while working the pedal down and back with my foot and toes, would cause all the air to move up and out.

__________________
Respectfully,
/s/
M. Dillon
'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
'95 124.131 (E300) "Sapphire", 380k miles
'73 Balboa 20 "Sanctification"
Charleston SC

Maxbumpo,

I was thinking the same thing. Over time wouldn't the air in the clutch eventually escape? The vibrations along with driving and parking up/down hills.

If air is getting into the system, then there would have to be a leak somewhere in the system. I'll pull the car up on ramps and look carefully at all the connections. Maybe I have a pin hole leak somewhere. I've see rusted brake lines on w123's so I guess it's possible.

Thanks for all the replies.

pete

With 350K on the car, and not knowing how long ago the clutch components have been replaced makes it a hard call. If it has been a long time, there is the possibility that either the clutch plate of pressure plate have deteriorated to the point of not freely releasing which would make shifting difficult. The other possibility might be the input shaft of the transmission. If there was work done in the past, and the input shaft of the transmission was not properly centered into the flywheel, there is the possibility that even when the clutch is depressed, the input shaft continues to turn making shifting difficult.

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96 E300d

If you have a good bleed and good actuation on the hydraulics, then the next thing would be the pressure plate. A worn lining will slip, and a cracked pressure plate will not disengage. I had one crack on me with about 140k on the car and the clutch just stopped working. With an 82 240D, you've probably got the aluminum box transmission, and plenty of room in the transmission tunnel to work with.

When I pulled the old pressure plate out, it looked to be in good condition but a careful look showed me that it was cracked and no good. A new pressure plate fixed my problem (good hydraulics, no release, in this case on a 300TD with manual)

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