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  #1  
Old 05-05-2019, 09:40 PM
777funk's Avatar
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Is transplanting a 606 turbo and transmission practical?

I owned a 603 for a number of years. I've always been curious about the 606 series of engines. I've owned a 1995 gas w124 and had lots of electronic issues with the ASR unfortunately. I could never track it down and ended up selling it after lots of limp homes. I wouldn't want the diesel version of the M104 if the 606 is it.

EDIT: To say no harm; no foul towards gasser owners. They're great cars no doubt. I prefer the least amount of complexity in an older vehicle no more no less.

That said, would it be practical to transplant this powertrain into another rear wheel drive vehicle? I have no idea on the transmission sensors and inputs. I've heard that the 300d turbo transmissions are pretty bad as far as issues that leave you on the side of the road. How much input is needed to have this engine and transmission actually drive in another vehicle.

I'd suspect:
-tps
-vss
-shift lever
-brake signal
for transmission

and
-pedal for the injection pump control
-mass airflow sensor
-o2 sensor?
-turbo boost pressure (MAP?) in place of the Alda in a mechanical pump
for the engine.

__________________
-E300d '99 350k
-Suburban '93 220k
-TDI Jetta '03 350k
Sold
-F250 '96 7.3
-Dodge Ram 12V
-E320 '95 200k
-E320 Wagon 1994 155k
-300d Turbo '87 187k miles
-E320 1994 200k
-300d Turbo '84 245k (sold to Dan62)
-300d Turbo '84 180k
-300sd '80 300k
-7.3 Powerstroke Diesel 15P Van 500k+ miles
-190d '89 Non Turbo 2.5 5cyl 240k (my first MB)
Tom's Imports of Columbia MO Ruined the IP in changing leaky delivery valve O-Rings - Refused to stand behind his work. Mid-MO MB drivers-AVOID Tom's.

Last edited by 777funk; 05-07-2019 at 06:10 PM.
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  #2  
Old 05-06-2019, 12:47 AM
sixto's Avatar
smoke gets in your eyes
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Eastern TN
Posts: 20,841
I don’t know what you’ve heard or from whom. The 722.3 transmission behind a 603 is solid when properly maintained. 200-250K miles might be their lifetime. The 722.6 transmission behind a 606 turbo can go longer. I don’t know if these 722.6s have an iffy bushing like gasser 6s or a roller bearing like gasser V8s and 6s from 2000. The 722.6 can be more particular about maintenance and fluid level.

The 606 turbo has more electronics and throttle by wire that can be tedious to tansplant but you can swap in a 603 IP for mechanical control. The 603 IP would have to be modified to flow the fuel levels of the original 606 IP. 603 doesn’t have an O2 sensor.

The 603 only has a MAF for emission controls. Unlikely you’d carry these over in a swap so no MAF to worry about. 603 has no TPS or VSS for engine control or brake signal for the transmission.

You seem pretty down on these drivetrains to be thinking of a swap. I would think an original MB application is as reliable as the drivetrain can get. Once you take it out of its element, reliability can only suffer.

Sixto
98 E320 wagon
02 C320 wagon
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  #3  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:29 AM
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OP, when you say another RWD vehicle, such as??

I think my curiosity might be if you could use the 606 block and head, with an otherwise 603 setup (turbo, IP, etc.), and get the best of all worlds. Then update the perceived weak points on the 722.3 AT (wonder if some later parts cross over), and have a great design.

Notionally the turbo 606 components are marginally stouter, to account for higher power.... But it seems like some parts may be the same. I know the oil pans are... But all speculative beyond that - Im sure others know...
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1985 190D (169k)
1991 350SD (113k)
1991 350SD (206k)
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Last edited by JHZR2; 05-06-2019 at 01:50 AM.
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  #4  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:05 AM
Benzguy300
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Fontana Ca
Posts: 1,573
You should check supetturbodiesel.com there’s a member there baldur I think is he’s user name he sells a stand alone so you can swap the 606 into another vehicle and control the engine with the original accessories including the injection pump
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  #5  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixto View Post
I don’t know what you’ve heard or from whom. The 722.3 transmission behind a 603 is solid when properly maintained. 200-250K miles might be their lifetime. The 722.6 transmission behind a 606 turbo can go longer. I don’t know if these 722.6s have an iffy bushing like gasser 6s or a roller bearing like gasser V8s and 6s from 2000. The 722.6 can be more particular about maintenance and fluid level.

The 606 turbo has more electronics and throttle by wire that can be tedious to tansplant but you can swap in a 603 IP for mechanical control. The 603 IP would have to be modified to flow the fuel levels of the original 606 IP. 603 doesn’t have an O2 sensor.

The 603 only has a MAF for emission controls. Unlikely you’d carry these over in a swap so no MAF to worry about. 603 has no TPS or VSS for engine control or brake signal for the transmission.

You seem pretty down on these drivetrains to be thinking of a swap. I would think an original MB application is as reliable as the drivetrain can get. Once you take it out of its element, reliability can only suffer.

Sixto
98 E320 wagon
02 C320 wagon

I'm pretty familiar with the 603 having owned one for a good amount of years and done a fair amount of work on it during that time. Great mechanical engine in my opinion and simple to work on. I'm not as familiar with the 606. From what I've read, the rack is solenoid controlled, but other than that the IP is still mechanical. It seems the rack and fueling via solenoid should be easy enough to control apart from the ECU via another controller. I'm not at all educated on how the solenoid is controlled, but I would think PWM or a varying voltage or current supply. I wonder where it gets it's feedback for governor control.

The transmission electronics are what I'm more concerned about. What would have to come with the transmission to allow it to shift and function as intended?

I am no longer in a place where the w124 or w210 are all that useful to me. I would be putting them in a Suburban (not the one I currently own). Being able to haul my family and cargo (building materials, wood, etc) are important at this point.
__________________
-E300d '99 350k
-Suburban '93 220k
-TDI Jetta '03 350k
Sold
-F250 '96 7.3
-Dodge Ram 12V
-E320 '95 200k
-E320 Wagon 1994 155k
-300d Turbo '87 187k miles
-E320 1994 200k
-300d Turbo '84 245k (sold to Dan62)
-300d Turbo '84 180k
-300sd '80 300k
-7.3 Powerstroke Diesel 15P Van 500k+ miles
-190d '89 Non Turbo 2.5 5cyl 240k (my first MB)
Tom's Imports of Columbia MO Ruined the IP in changing leaky delivery valve O-Rings - Refused to stand behind his work. Mid-MO MB drivers-AVOID Tom's.
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  #6  
Old 05-06-2019, 10:08 AM
Diesel Preferred
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 2,788
Some folks have already conquered that problem (722.6 electronic transmission moved into a different RWD car). I think there is a thread here somewhere? Guy in Europe developed a controller, then made a hot-rod 123 car with 722.6 trans and installed paddle-shifters. Looked like lotsa fun.

OM606 swap is not too hard, really just need to get an earlier pure-mechanical injection pump. Use a pump from the 3.5 liter engine, or get a pump specially built.
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'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
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  #7  
Old 05-06-2019, 10:17 AM
Diesel Preferred
 
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Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 2,788
Here's a couple links:

Sound German Automotive

Home
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Respectfully,
/s/
M. Dillon
'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
'95 124.131 (E300) "Sapphire", 380k miles
'73 Balboa 20 "Sanctification"
Charleston SC
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  #8  
Old 05-06-2019, 10:24 AM
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Thanks. I had actually stumbled across the second guy you posted this morning. Pretty cool. I designed a simple paddle shift for a Ford E4OD in a powerstroke van that would not shift with the stock computer years back. Simplistic with only manual control for gears 1-4 and TCC lockup (along with gear 4 shift) but it worked great. Maybe this transmission is similar in terms of just switching on/off solenoids.
__________________
-E300d '99 350k
-Suburban '93 220k
-TDI Jetta '03 350k
Sold
-F250 '96 7.3
-Dodge Ram 12V
-E320 '95 200k
-E320 Wagon 1994 155k
-300d Turbo '87 187k miles
-E320 1994 200k
-300d Turbo '84 245k (sold to Dan62)
-300d Turbo '84 180k
-300sd '80 300k
-7.3 Powerstroke Diesel 15P Van 500k+ miles
-190d '89 Non Turbo 2.5 5cyl 240k (my first MB)
Tom's Imports of Columbia MO Ruined the IP in changing leaky delivery valve O-Rings - Refused to stand behind his work. Mid-MO MB drivers-AVOID Tom's.
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  #9  
Old 05-06-2019, 11:16 AM
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One of my buddies swapped in a N/A+T OM606 with a 722.6 (stand alone TCU) and a HX35 into his Dodge Ram 1500 Crewcab and it's been awesome.. nothing but reliable actually. Gets 35mpg also.. hes running a 603 pump of course..
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  #10  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:43 PM
777funk's Avatar
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If I can find a cheap one, I think I'll try it.
__________________
-E300d '99 350k
-Suburban '93 220k
-TDI Jetta '03 350k
Sold
-F250 '96 7.3
-Dodge Ram 12V
-E320 '95 200k
-E320 Wagon 1994 155k
-300d Turbo '87 187k miles
-E320 1994 200k
-300d Turbo '84 245k (sold to Dan62)
-300d Turbo '84 180k
-300sd '80 300k
-7.3 Powerstroke Diesel 15P Van 500k+ miles
-190d '89 Non Turbo 2.5 5cyl 240k (my first MB)
Tom's Imports of Columbia MO Ruined the IP in changing leaky delivery valve O-Rings - Refused to stand behind his work. Mid-MO MB drivers-AVOID Tom's.
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  #11  
Old 05-07-2019, 01:17 AM
sixto's Avatar
smoke gets in your eyes
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Eastern TN
Posts: 20,841
Duramax into Suburban swap might be cheaper and easier.

Sixto
98 E320 wagon
02 C320 wagon
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  #12  
Old 05-07-2019, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbolton1990 View Post
One of my buddies swapped in a N/A+T OM606 with a 722.6 (stand alone TCU) and a HX35 into his Dodge Ram 1500 Crewcab and it's been awesome.. nothing but reliable actually. Gets 35mpg also.. hes running a 603 pump of course..
Do people notice the sound difference? Do people go,"Hmmmm, not a Cummins but still a diesel..."
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  #13  
Old 05-07-2019, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixto View Post
Duramax into Suburban swap might be cheaper and easier.

I'd think anything swapped is going to be somewhat challenging. I had considered a 12 valve 6bt cummins for years after owning one for a bit. The cost is much higher than the value in my opinion even though they're a great engine. I like the idea of a modified 60x engine. Last summer, there were two complete good 603s pulled from trashed cars listed for $400 and they sat for a few weeks even at that price. They're undervalued for what they are IMO. I already have a big wastegate turbo sitting around that may fit. I would hopefully only need bigger pump elements.
__________________
-E300d '99 350k
-Suburban '93 220k
-TDI Jetta '03 350k
Sold
-F250 '96 7.3
-Dodge Ram 12V
-E320 '95 200k
-E320 Wagon 1994 155k
-300d Turbo '87 187k miles
-E320 1994 200k
-300d Turbo '84 245k (sold to Dan62)
-300d Turbo '84 180k
-300sd '80 300k
-7.3 Powerstroke Diesel 15P Van 500k+ miles
-190d '89 Non Turbo 2.5 5cyl 240k (my first MB)
Tom's Imports of Columbia MO Ruined the IP in changing leaky delivery valve O-Rings - Refused to stand behind his work. Mid-MO MB drivers-AVOID Tom's.
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  #14  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:29 AM
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Somewhat related but not a full swap

https://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/394482-606-g-wagon-swap.html


What is your end goal ? Mileage / fun / power?

Why are you down on any M104 based engine?

What year range was the 606 ?

I've heavily researched a M104 swap that, for the most part, is similar to what you want to do. You MUST have a complete running car in order to make this possible as tracking down obscure parts will stall the project.

You would need to use the ignition key / antenna / DAS antitheft box / Engine computer / Transmission computer / ABS computer. ( If the car has a smart key, the key , Ignition switch / steering column lock / Engine computer . )

All you really need to do is make everything think it is still in the original car. This amounts to feeding the ABS computer a signal at a ratio that it expects. This can be accomplished by using a electronic speedo fooler. The ABS communicates wheel speed to the trans controller in order to calculate slippage in higher gears.

Proof of concept would be installing a toothed wheel on the donors drive shaft then using a speedo fooler to bring the signal back into the proper ratio.

For the target car you would add a speed sensor to the drive shaft or intercept the rear speed sensor.
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  #15  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:50 AM
777funk's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 SL320 View Post

Why are you down on any M104 based engine?
.
ASR problems with my last m104 were quite a headache. I changed the TB and the PCM (already had a new harness). Still lots of limp home mode and never could quite track it down. Based on suggestions from forums it turned into a parts throwing fest and hours wasted. It's not that these were bad suggestions, it was just such a mysterious or broad scoped problem. With diesel, it's a little easier to get a visual on problems and be more decisive on what's needed. The M104 is a fine engine mechanically, I'm just a little burned on MB and electronics. I've owned MANY MBs and they couldn't even keep the simple stuff (cruise, climate control, spedo, tach, etc) working on many of these cars. To the engineer's credit, much of it is not at a circuit design level, but more involved with manufacturing choices and poor aging (oxidation and solder joints in PCBs and clusters... not to mention the biodegradable wiring looms). MB is strong on metallurgy and moving parts/assemblies, but in my opinion weaker in electronics/electrical. No offense to any M104 owners. If yours runs great, you may be in a majority. It's a great sounding engine with respectable power and runs great when it runs. My last one may have been a fluke, but I have had many MBs and most had many electronics issues. All had at least some.

EDIT: ASR not ALS.

__________________
-E300d '99 350k
-Suburban '93 220k
-TDI Jetta '03 350k
Sold
-F250 '96 7.3
-Dodge Ram 12V
-E320 '95 200k
-E320 Wagon 1994 155k
-300d Turbo '87 187k miles
-E320 1994 200k
-300d Turbo '84 245k (sold to Dan62)
-300d Turbo '84 180k
-300sd '80 300k
-7.3 Powerstroke Diesel 15P Van 500k+ miles
-190d '89 Non Turbo 2.5 5cyl 240k (my first MB)
Tom's Imports of Columbia MO Ruined the IP in changing leaky delivery valve O-Rings - Refused to stand behind his work. Mid-MO MB drivers-AVOID Tom's.

Last edited by 777funk; 05-07-2019 at 06:13 PM.
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