Will Mercedes Diesels Be Forced to Disappear?

[PreferVintage]

I asked a variant of this question about a year ago, but recent events have me wanting to take an informal poll as it were once again, and impose on the membership here. Like the rest of the members of this forum, I am attached to early Mercedes vehicles, and sought long and hard to find my perfect diesel, a 1982 300D purchased new and driven by the proverbial little old lady. With only 170K on the clock, it did have engine and transmission problems, but I stuck with it and it runs beautifully now...lots of power, smooth, great handling and smooth ride. As an engineer, I appreciated the technology and thermodynamic efficiency of a diesel...and the lack of a computer that could leave me stranded one day. However, after the VW 'dieselgate' fiasco, the emphasis on electric cars, and the banning in some European cities of IC vehicles in general, I foresee that day when our 'dirty diesels' will be derided and possibly banned or heavily taxed here in the U.S. I see fewer and fewer W123s and W126s on the road these days...maybe five a year in the Northeast. Does anyone here think the alt left legislatures might add our cars to the plastic bag bans now sweeping everywhere? Everything is Tesla and other electrics, which of course still rely predominantly on fossil fuel electric generation, and which took a lot of energy and resources to manufacture in the first place, while the carbon footprint of our cars' manufacture was left more than 40 years ago...I doubt a Tesla today will be on the road in 40 years...

[Benzman53]

Only IF WE LET THEM! If we try to equate the VW scandle to our situation, we are comparing apples to oranges. VW tried to game the system of environmental constraints and lost, BIG TIME. You gotta play by the rules. That being said, we can shape future legislation regarding our cars by writing and calling our congressmen. They aren't the boogeyman writing the goofy laws but they are the ones permiting those goofy laws to become actual requirements.
Occasionally, it's best to try and understand why anyone would want to do away with our cars in favor of electric cars. Electric appear cleaner and are quieter (I've ridden in Tesla and was impressed). Unfortunately, the economics they now enjoy will soon come to a screeching halt as road taxes are applied to their charging stations. Also remember how that electric power is produced and distributed to that charging station. Coal, fuel oil, natural gas....? What is the efficiency of that conversion all the way to the charging station?
Being an engineer myself, here is our daily quiz question:
If we replace the consumption of 8 million barrels/day of gasoline @ 110,000 BTU/gallon with electric, what is the required electric power production?
I think you will see, the requirement for new power plant construction is challenging to say the least, the biggest hurdle being the greenies who brought you the electric car phenomenon.

[Junkman]

They don't need to be banned to come off the road. They will be gone through attrition. I have a 78Z car. 35 years ago, they were plentiful. 20 years ago they were still available in the yards. 10 years ago the message boards were thriving. I haven't seen one on the road as a daily driver in years although I'm working on getting mine back.

The same with 1st & 2nd gen Dodge Cummins. 1st gen is almost gone. We know everything needed about the 2nd gen and parts are plentiful. The message boards are shrinking and the trucks will be mostly off road in another 10 years.

At least the engines with the mechanical Injection pump "can" be made to run even if commercial fuel becomes unavailable. There are lots of big trucks running diesel so I doubt that will happen soon. Technology isn't there yet.

[79-240d]

Originally Posted by Junkman

They don't need to be banned to come off the road. They will be gone through attrition. I have a 78Z car. 35 years ago, they were plentiful. 20 years ago they were still available in the yards. 10 years ago the message boards were thriving. I haven't seen one on the road as a daily driver in years although I'm working on getting mine back.

This is the correct answer. W123s will not need to be banned from the roads for the same reason that Model Ts, despite having nothing resembling modern safety standards, need to be banned from the roads. Already, W123s, although representing a disproportionate share of the remaining cars in operation from their era of production, are a vanishingly small portion of the overall vehicle fleet.

I think we may see a point where fossil fuels in general are are taxed at a level that it makes it unappealing for most drivers to use IC vehicles. There may also be more cities adopting city-wide bans on IC vehicles (although I find this to be an unlikely probability in most US cities, with their pitiful public transit infrastructure). But either of those developments are going to be a general trends, not something targeted at vintage MB.

[WDBCB20]

Well, once the NLA parts start to wear out or fail beyond repair so that you'll be left without, say, an operating VCV resulting in rought shifts, how much longer are you going to want to drive it unless you're able to reverse engineer and fabricate something that will perform that function?

[jsp300D]

Originally Posted by WDBCB20

Well, once the NLA parts start to wear out or fail beyond repair so that you'll be left without, say, an operating VCV resulting in rought shifts, how much longer are you going to want to drive it unless you're able to reverse engineer and fabricate something that will perform that function?

I need to re fabricate some parts already as it is NLA.

[strelnik]

Originally Posted by 79-240d

This is the correct answer. W123s will not need to be banned from the roads for the same reason that Model Ts, despite having nothing resembling modern safety standards, need to be banned from the roads. Already, W123s, although representing a disproportionate share of the remaining cars in operation from their era of production, are a vanishingly small portion of the overall vehicle fleet.

I think we may see a point where fossil fuels in general are are taxed at a level that it makes it unappealing for most drivers to use IC vehicles. There may also be more cities adopting city-wide bans on IC vehicles (although I find this to be an unlikely probability in most US cities, with their pitiful public transit infrastructure). But either of those developments are going to be a general trends, not something targeted at vintage MB.

In my opinion, it is so easy to make diesel, especially if you are on a farm, that these cars will outlast many of their owners.

[ykobayashi]

Great thoughts.

I was wondering what I’d do when my VCV goes out. I still see 300ds and 300sds at the yard with valves. It’s still easier to find a beat up one than to make a VCV. I’ve thought about it because I designed a flow control system for a vacuum system in 2006. All it takes is a throttle position sensor, a proportioning valve and a microprocessor. A high school nerd with an Arduino could do it. But it hasn’t gotten that hard yet. I can still get one at the yard.

But as you guys have pointed out that is changing. I now watch for the cars arriving at my local yards using internet notifications rather than just showing up and picking the three or more 300ds I’d find on the ground twenty years ago at any random time.

Makes me happy I was able to change my window seals with fresh rubber from
URO. I love and hate URO but it’s what we’ve got ya know?

Here’s one to think about. I just had my 51st birthday. We are not forever. The way I have my diesels sorted they may just be my last cars if I don’t make an effort to replace them.

My dad is legally blind and paralyzed at 84. My uncle just died in November at 82.

Let’s not worry about all this. Drive now. It’s Saturday gents, time to glow the plugs.

[merc lover]

Jay Leno has kept his legendary Duesenberg automobile running by making parts himself. With today's 3-D printers, anything is possible. If we want to keep these old diesels running, we can.

[gonesurfing]

I don't see this happening. There are too many other bigger environmental issues to tackle first. Perhaps CARB will declare a rule at some point that will apply to CA, but I don't see it being implemented federally. When I think about the volume of diesel emissions, it's 1) older or non-compliant OTR trucks, 2) people with modern vehicles but DPF deletes, 3) antique vehicle owners are a distant third due to the reasons listed above.

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by PreferVintage

Will Mercedes Diesels Be Forced to Disappear?

I hope so, unfortunately it'll take a while. If old Benz diesels get banned so will a lot of other heavy duty diesel engines as well which are the main source if particulate pollution in urban areas. Do you know anyone with Asthma or lung cancer?

[pawoSD]

They will disappear from lack of repair parts long before they disappear from any political intervention. Or, from shortage of fuel at reasonable cost. The old ones really didn't get that great of MPG. Today you can get turbo gasoline vehicles that get 35mpg and make 300+ hp.....

And while the old cars may not have computers to break, plenty of other stuff did, like climate control, relays, wiper motor mechanisms, and RUST.

I almost never see MB's around here earlier than W203/W210/W140/W124. Very rarely I see a W123 or W126. Plenty of R107's though.

[WDBCB20]

Originally Posted by pawoSD

They will disappear from lack of repair parts long before they disappear from any political intervention. Or, from shortage of fuel at reasonable cost. The old ones really didn't get that great of MPG. Today you can get turbo gasoline vehicles that get 35mpg and make 300+ hp.....

And while the old cars may not have computers to break, plenty of other stuff did, like climate control, relays, wiper motor mechanisms, and RUST.

I almost never see MB's around here earlier than W203/W210/W140/W124. Very rarely I see a W123 or W126. Plenty of R107's though.

True, MPG is obsolete unless you run renewables. But you can still get a refurb w126 CCU for $130. relays are consumables, 126 wiper motor mechanisms last for ever if people would only bother lubricating them and replace the rubber seals.\ Rust can be kept at bay if you stay on top of integrity of protective coatings.

[vwnate1]

Yes, of course ~ the instant they crack the battery nut so you can drive 12 hours without needing to stop and re charge, all Internal Combustion Engines will be obsolete because no one will want to buy them anymore .

Don't worry, we'll all be long dead and gone when that occurs .

[INSIDIOUS]

Originally Posted by WDBCB20

True, MPG is obsolete unless you run renewables. But you can still get a refurb w126 CCU for $130. relays are consumables, 126 wiper motor mechanisms last for ever if people would only bother lubricating them and replace the rubber seals.\ Rust can be kept at bay if you stay on top of integrity of protective coatings.

I never looked at the wiper motor, windshield or lights. (W126's) what should be done about the lube? thanks