Air filter musings - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Diesel911 · #16 06-02-2021, 12:51 PM

A Frame washable Air Filter as used on my Van. See attached pic. The pic of the media is dark because when I used the flash or even when I tried to take it out side in the sunlight it reflected too much and you could not see the nano-fibers.

Note the media is at least twice as thick as paper.

In order to accept that the Fram Washable Air Filter does not filter well I would have to believe that Fram would produce a poor air filter.

martureo · #17 06-02-2021, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

A Frame washable Air Filter as used on my Van. See attached pic. The pic of the media is dark because when I used the flash or even when I tried to take it out side in the sunlight it reflected too much and you could not see the nano-fibers.

Note the media is at least twice as thick as paper.

In order to accept that the Fram Washable Air Filter does not filter well I would have to believe that Fram would produce a poor air filter.

Seriously though, do you really believe that crappy products aren't on the shelf under name brands?

The material is twice as thick as it needs to stand up against water/pressurized air during the washing process. Its the same reason why reusable forks are more durable than single use, plastic forks.

The biggest issue with washable filters is that they sacrifice filtering for durability. There's particulates that will end up in your filter that you will never be able to wash out, this will make the filter less efficient (blocking more air). To account for this they make the filtering element out of something that will filter less (let more air through).

Industrial applications are different. The filters are much more expensive and oversized so that they can be serviced at specified intervals. Its the same kind of issues that we talk about when considering oil filters and fuel filters. Longevity, size of filtering element and particulate size.

Diesel911 · #18 06-02-2021, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

Seriously though, do you really believe that crappy products aren't on the shelf under name brands?

The material is twice as thick as it needs to stand up against water/pressurized air during the washing process. Its the same reason why reusable forks are more durable than single use, plastic forks.

The biggest issue with washable filters is that they sacrifice filtering for durability. There's particulates that will end up in your filter that you will never be able to wash out, this will make the filter less efficient (blocking more air). To account for this they make the filtering element out of something that will filter less (let more air through).

Industrial applications are different. The filters are much more expensive and oversized so that they can be serviced at specified intervals. Its the same kind of issues that we talk about when considering oil filters and fuel filters. Longevity, size of filtering element and particulate size.

See the site I posted where the Guy did several oil analysis's after installing dueling the use of his washable Air Filters. And he is speaking of one made specifically by Farm.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/280376-washable-air-filter-intake-mod-larger-breather.html

I have the washable air filters on 2 of my frequently driven vehicles; the 84 Mercedes 300D and my Chevy Astro Van. And you can see from the date on the thread how long I have been using them (since July of 2010). I have 2 washables for each vehicle so I can swap and wash and dry.

Zero noticeable performance issues on either vehicle and the one on the Van is rather small and cannot be oversized as it has to fit into the stock Air Box.

The WA8039 Filter on the Mercedes is one used on the Largest Ford V-8 gasser Trucks and Vans.

On the Freeway that Van likes 70 mph and out of town has no issues going 90mph.

Notice that when others argue opinion I try to post some info beyond my opinion.

martureo · #19 06-02-2021, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

See the site I posted where the Guy did several oil analysis's after installing dueling the use of his washable Air Filters. And he is speaking of one made specifically by Farm.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/280376-washable-air-filter-intake-mod-larger-breather.html

I have the washable air filters on 2 of my frequently driven vehicles; the 84 Mercedes 300D and my Chevy Astro Van. And you can see from the date on the thread how long I have been using them (since July of 2010). I have 2 washables for each vehicle so I can swap and wash and dry.

Zero noticeable performance issues on either vehicle and the one on the Van is rather small and cannot be oversized as it has to fit into the stock Air Box.

The WA8039 Filter on the Mercedes is one used on the Largest Ford V-8 gasser Trucks and Vans.

On the Freeway that Van likes 70 mph and out of town has no issues going 90mph.

Notice that when others argue opinion I try to post some info beyond my opinion.

I notice that you don't address anyone else's explanation and come up with your own logic.

You're allowing more particles in your engines because the filters you're relying upon allow more dirt through. I said this already and you ignored it. How do I know this? Because you're now saying that there's no performance loss, which one wouldn't experience if the filters were letting in bigger particles like I said.

Diesel911 · #20 06-03-2021, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

I notice that you don't address anyone else's explanation and come up with your own logic.

You're allowing more particles in your engines because the filters you're relying upon allow more dirt through. I said this already and you ignored it. How do I know this? Because you're now saying that there's no performance loss, which one wouldn't experience if the filters were letting in bigger particles like I said.

My Logic is I bought an air filter that happens to be washable from a well know Maker and I have posted a site where someone said they did more then one oil analysis to see if a washable filter by the same maker showed abnormal silica in the oil and the answer was no abnormal silica (you know science).

You have supplied zero to show that what you opinion is correct. You are again bearing false witness.

People can and will use what they want to on their individual vehicles.

JohnLeCar · #21 06-04-2021, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

My Logic is I bought an air filter that happens to be washable from a well know Maker and I have posted a site where someone said they did more then one oil analysis to see if a washable filter by the same maker showed abnormal silica in the oil and the answer was no abnormal silica (you know science).

You have supplied zero to show that what you opinion is correct. You are again bearing false witness.

People can and will use what they want to on their individual vehicles.

from Imgflip Meme Generator

Diesel911 · #22 06-04-2021, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnLeCar

from Imgflip Meme Generator

I guess it depends on what your personal definition is: log·ic [lójjik]
n
1. philosophy theory of reasoning: the branch of philosophy that deals with the theory of deductive and inductive arguments and aims to distinguish good from bad reasoning
2. system or instance of reasoning: any system of, or an instance of, reasoning and inference
3. sensible argument and thought: sensible rational thought and argument rather than ideas that are influenced by emotion or whim
4. reasoning of particular field: the principles of reasoning relevant to a particular field
5. relationship and pattern of events: the relationship between specific events, situations, or objects, and the inevitable consequences of their interaction
6. comput circuit design in computer: the circuit design and principles used by a computer in its operation

Clearly what is logical to one person is not logical to another.

If you have a disagreement about a point of logic it needs to be specifically brought up.

Opinions ought to be backed up with some sort of actual evidence to be creditable.

martureo · #23 06-04-2021, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

My Logic is I bought an air filter that happens to be washable from a well know Maker

This is red herring. "Well known Maker" is nothing but a large manufacturer. That there exists products from name brand manufacturers that you would not purchase because of low quality proves this to be a fallacious argument.

You have also criticized other companies for producing unsatisfactory products. Is STP not a "well known Maker" or do you think its possible that companies produce things that make them money regardless of how well they sell?

https://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3915785

Quote:

and I have posted a site where someone said they did more then one oil analysis to see if a washable filter by the same maker showed abnormal silica in the oil and the answer was no abnormal silica (you know science).

I've combed through your old threads and found nothing of the sort.

Furthermore, what in the world does "abnormal silica" in the oil have to do with air filters?

Quote:

You have supplied zero to show that what you opinion is correct. You are again bearing false witness.

People can and will use what they want to on their individual vehicles.

Here you go. Seems they said the exact same thing I did.

Quote:

Oiled Filters

In most aftermarket intake kits, companies supply their product with an oiled filter. Oiled filters flow more air through their media because they are constructed from a more open cotton material that is coated with a thin layer of oil.

Generally, high-performance dry filters can catch up to 99% of the incoming contaminants due to the smaller micron size of the filter media, while oiled filters catch about 98% of what passes through – a minute difference, but a difference none-the-less.

The oiled filter material relies on the tackiness of the oil to catch contaminants while the more open media allows a higher flow rate. The oil acts as a sticky trap for incoming air contaminants, providing an important layer of protection to keep the air free of debris. These filters typically come pre-oiled with a specific amount so they can drop right in without the user having to do anything. Oiled filters are what you see in most race applications (excluding off-road). They aren’t always conical as pictured above. Many companies offer a direct drop in replacement for the stock air filter, and often, there is a slight bump in performance.

Another benefit is that these filters can last a lot longer than their dry counterparts. Oiled filters have the advantage of being completely washable and reusable, so you don’t have to keep buying filters once they become too dirty. All you must do is follow the instructions to clean the filter and you’re all set!

However, with greater airflow from these filters comes great responsibility. Oiled filters must be regularly cleaned, maintained and properly oiled, or else they can become detrimental to performance. You may have also heard that oiled filters can damage your mass airflow sensor (MAF). Let’s nip this right in the bud. Usually the only way for something like this to happen is if you over-oil your filter when re-applying the oil. If there is too much oil on the filter, some of it can get sucked in through the cotton gauze and damage the MAF sensor. This is where you must be careful and follow the instructions on how to clean your oiled filter.

https://www.mishimoto.com/engineering/2016/11/filtering-right-stuff-dry-vs-oiled-air-filters/

To add to the discussion why don't we bring in the HVAC washable filters that exist? They have better documentation and have to pass a different set of standards than any crap you might put in your engine bay.

I really liked this line.

Quote:

...

Maintenance. Washable filters require regular visits to the furnace room to remove and clean thoroughly. A disposable furnace filter might require the same trip to the basement but it's an easier process. Simply pull out the old air filter, toss in the trash, and slide in a new one.

Disposable air filters are more effective at trapping small particles. Washable air filters are typically only good at protecting from large particles like dust. They do not effectively filter out pet dander, bacteria, viruses or smoke, especially when they're not meticulously maintained.

Washable air filters only offer a MERV rating between 1 and 4. This is fairly low considering the MERV ratings for other air filters go as high as 16.

https://filterbuy.com/the-problem-with-washable-air-filters/

martureo · #24 06-04-2021, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

I guess it depends on what your personal definition is: log·ic [lójjik]
n
1. philosophy theory of reasoning: the branch of philosophy that deals with the theory of deductive and inductive arguments and aims to distinguish good from bad reasoning
2. system or instance of reasoning: any system of, or an instance of, reasoning and inference
3. sensible argument and thought: sensible rational thought and argument rather than ideas that are influenced by emotion or whim
4. reasoning of particular field: the principles of reasoning relevant to a particular field
5. relationship and pattern of events: the relationship between specific events, situations, or objects, and the inevitable consequences of their interaction
6. comput circuit design in computer: the circuit design and principles used by a computer in its operation

Clearly what is logical to one person is not logical to another.

If you have a disagreement about a point of logic it needs to be specifically brought up.

Opinions ought to be backed up with some sort of actual evidence to be creditable.

No, there isn't any difference of logic, and opinion isn't logic.

You used bad reasoning and thus your opinion is illogical.

Diesel911 · #25 06-04-2021, 07:23 PM

Please go to the WIX site and look up some automotive Oil Filters. Pick a spin on filter for simplicity. On the list of specs you will see either a nominal micron rating or a beta rating that determine the level of filtration on that individual filter.
Wix is one of the few sites that has specs.

Go to their section on air filers and look up CA7421 (the regular disposable filter for my Van) in the competitors search. This will bring you to the Wix version for my van and look up on the list the filtration level in microns.

What I found when I looked 8 years ago was that there is no specs on the level of filtration of Wix automotive air filters. They do give a flow in cfm.

My brief look on the Fram site also did not show any level of filtration specs for even their disposable air filters.

With out any specs to compare how can someone say the washables don't filter as well as the disposables?

Diesel911 · #26 06-04-2021, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

This is red herring. "Well known Maker" is nothing but a large manufacturer. That there exists products from name brand manufacturers that you would not purchase because of low quality proves this to be a fallacious argument.

You have also criticized other companies for producing unsatisfactory products. Is STP not a "well known Maker" or do you think its possible that companies produce things that make them money regardless of how well they sell?

https://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3915785

I've combed through your old threads and found nothing of the sort.

Furthermore, what in the world does "abnormal silica" in the oil have to do with air filters?
Here you go. Seems they said the exact same thing I did.

https://www.mishimoto.com/engineering/2016/11/filtering-right-stuff-dry-vs-oiled-air-filters/

To add to the discussion why don't we bring in the HVAC washable filters that exist? They have better documentation and have to pass a different set of standards than any crap you might put in your engine bay.

I really liked this line.

https://filterbuy.com/the-problem-with-washable-air-filters/

With the various makes of Mercedes Oil Filters I cut up some of them myself and took a look. I also wrote to some of the makers and found that they have no idea what the bypass section of the Oil filter filter down to.

I also viewed the extensive evidence from many of our members. So my opinions on the Oil filters is backed by personal observation, some evidence I found out and other evidence from our members. There is 3 extensive threads on the issue. I speculated on nothing.

Anything involving oiled air filters of the cotton type like the K&N nor any foam types (which I have no experience with) has zero to do with the washable Frams that I am using on my Vehicles.

When I did use the K&N Filter I used it because I had blow-by contaminating and wrecking the disposable elements. Since the K&N is oil impregnated a little Oil vapor does not harm it.
With the extensive arguments I faced for using the K&N I can personally say that I never could feel any grit on the inside of the hosing which would have stuck to the blow by oil.
Then there was the report from one of the Members that said he worked in a Shop that did extensive work on Sand Buggy Engines. He said he never saw any evidence taking apart Engines that the K&N filters were not working.

Also the K&N air filters are oil impregnated not oil coated. The oil absorbs into the passages in the fabric. The fabric crates may labyrinths that the particles have to negotiate and the particles impact on the oil and stick.

The answer to the other issue you provided yourself: "Generally, high-performance dry filters can catch up to 99% of the incoming contaminants due to the smaller micron size of the filter media, while oiled filters catch about 98% of what passes through – a minute difference, but a difference none-the-less."

As you said "not a big difference." And it is entirely possible that disposable elements from different companies perform differently; some my perform better and others worse.

In you case you are unable to answer if the unoiled Fram washable air filters have poorer filtration.

martureo · #27 06-04-2021, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

With the various makes of Mercedes Oil Filters I cut up some of them myself and took a look. I also wrote to some of the makers and found that they have no idea what the bypass section of the Oil filter filter down to.

I also viewed the extensive evidence from many of our members. So my opinions on the Oil filters is backed by personal observation, some evidence I found out and other evidence from our members. There is 3 extensive threads on the issue. I speculated on nothing.

Anything involving oiled air filters of the cotton type like the K&N nor any foam types (which I have no experience with) has zero to do with the washable Frams that I am using on my Vehicles.

When I did use the K&N Filter I used it because I had blow-by contaminating and wrecking the disposable elements. Since the K&N is oil impregnated a little Oil vapor does not harm it.
With the extensive arguments I faced for using the K&N I can personally say that I never could feel any grit on the inside of the hosing which would have stuck to the blow by oil.
Then there was the report from one of the Members that said he worked in a Shop that did extensive work on Sand Buggy Engines. He said he never saw any evidence taking apart Engines that the K&N filters were not working.

Also the K&N air filters are oil impregnated not oil coated. The oil absorbs into the passages in the fabric. The fabric crates may labyrinths that the particles have to negotiate and the particles impact on the oil and stick.

The answer to the other issue you provided yourself: "Generally, high-performance dry filters can catch up to 99% of the incoming contaminants due to the smaller micron size of the filter media, while oiled filters catch about 98% of what passes through – a minute difference, but a difference none-the-less."

As you said "not a big difference." And it is entirely possible that disposable elements from different companies perform differently; some my perform better and others worse.

In you case you are unable to answer if the unoiled Fram washable air filters have poorer filtration.

Dude, you're the reason why we can't have nice stuff. You'd tell an expert who invented a certain technology that your opinion held as much weight as theirs.

Diesel911 · #28 06-05-2021, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

Dude, you're the reason why we can't have nice stuff. You'd tell an expert who invented a certain technology that your opinion held as much weight as theirs.

You manufacture an Oil Filter for my 84 300D. A forum member posts pics of some filter he has cut apart and finds that the bypass oil filtration of the oil filer has a lot of plant crap other then cotton in it.

So you cut a few filters apart and look for yourself and the Member was indeed right.

You right to 5 filter makers asking them what level of filtration the upper bypass Oil Filter section has. A few answer back and you find out there is zero spec on that. All they say is they are using filler material that the manufacture allows (accept that actual observation shows some filters have not much crap and others have a lot more crap in them and in some the packing is loose and in other it is firmly packed).

With zero micron level of filtration specs. Your an engineer. If you you don't have a spec how do you do quality control? The conclusion is the bypass Oil Filter section has no quality control as to how well it will actually filter.

Now in your case I have read of no test comparing the Fram Washable Filter I am using any disposable filters. What that means is you have a lot of innuendo with no facts to back you up.

Deliveryvalve list of oil filter microns. Note that all filters are not created equal or there is a large variance in the makers testing. Why said that the disposable Air Filter by different makers for the same vehicle might not all filter to the same micron level.
NAPA Gold Filters - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

The Filter makers do know what the full flow section filters down to.

M-shop is this forum which used to be called mercedesshop.

Anyways. Here is the problem I have besides the waste cotton issue.... Micron ratings....

Wix -
Full flow section 32 microns.
Noted here by M-shop member moonlite in this post and this post2.
No bypass section.

Mann-
Full flow section 27 microns
Noted here by M-shop member SUNRG in this post3
By pass is undetermined

Fram -
Full flow section 25 microns
Note by M-shop member moonlite in this Post4
By pass is undetermined.

Mahle -
Full flow section 22 microns
Noted M-shop member moonlite on this Post5
By pass is undetermined.

Baldwin -
Full flow section 18 microns
By pass section is 15 microns

Baldwin/Hastings is the only company that knows what the by pass section filters down to and also has the best filtration in the full flow section.

Just going throw this in. Industrial Air Filters, meaning not for vehicles do have micron ratings.

vwnate1 · #29 06-05-2021, 10:25 AM

A anyone on the Auto Trade knows that Fram (NOTE : not "Farm" or "Frame"

) was bought by Allied Signal long long ago and immediately began cheapening their products, most notably the air filters began using sub par medium .

This discussion is akin to watching to lazy guys try to validate "topsider" oil change tools as if they'd ever get all the crud out of the pan via the dip stick tube

.

The closed mind gathers no facts and cannot learn .

Diesel911 · #30 06-05-2021, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwnate1

A anyone on the Auto Trade knows that Fram (NOTE : not "Farm" or "Frame"

) was bought by Allied Signal long long ago and immediately began cheapening their products, most notably the air filters began using sub par medium .

This discussion is akin to watching to lazy guys try to validate "topsider" oil change tools as if they'd ever get all the crud out of the pan via the dip stick tube

.

The closed mind gathers no facts and cannot learn .

Sorry about the typos. My arthritic hands get letters out of order or even inadvertently ads letters. I seldom proof read.

I would be interested to see you post something recent that is beyond just your opinion. Please post something specific on the Fram air filters.

Champion Labs makes a lot of Oil Filters for all kinds of brands.
https://www.fram.com/team-fram/latest-news/first-brands-group-formerly-trico-group-acquires-brake-parts-inc-bpi-and-champion-laboratories-inc-champ-labs/

"Dear Valued Customer:
As many of you know, FRAM Group, a leading manufacturer and distributor of automotive and heavyduty products, including FRAM®
oil, air, transmission and fuel filters, has combined its filtration
business with the Champion Laboratories business of UCI International, a leading manufacturer and
distributor of a broad range of filtration products branded under the LUBER-FINER®
and CHAMP®
brands. These businesses will now go to market as a single entity – FRAM Filtration"

https://www.fram.com/media/1115/fram-group-and-uci-combine-filtration-businesses-to-form-fram-filtration_0.pdf