The oil debate again What do you think of this - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

240Joe · #31 01-28-2005, 07:54 PM

You didn't expect me to post or you didn't expect to see my oil choices?

As to the oil, I have my reasoning for both although they may appear a bit odd.

Joe

Hatterasguy · #32 01-28-2005, 07:59 PM

I didn't expect you to post. The last oil threads got kind of "heated".

Were cool, nice to see you!

240Joe · #33 01-28-2005, 08:12 PM

Yes, I do seem to remember a few lively discussions about oil.

The "change it hot and change it often" gang took offense with my practices and analysis, and tried to take me out back and beat the snot out of me.

However, after a bit of reasoning, I was able to convert them all to 10kmile change intervals.

Joe

aklim · #34 01-28-2005, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickjordan

Why is it only now they, MB, recommend synthetic oil. Is it their sponsorship from Mobil, to cover up the flawed FSS program, or to make it appear that the cars cost less to maintain by stretching the oil change intervals.

What is wrong with the FSS program?

MTUpower · #35 01-28-2005, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

Gulf Coast Filters sells bypass filter kits that you can add to your engine if you want. However, after reading reports of people who have done this, I don't think it's worth it. Here's why. You need to replace the bypass filter element every 2000 miles, AND add a fresh quart of oil (to replace the oil removed in the saturated filter). While the oil stays cleaner longer, there is almost no cost savings, since you are continually adding oil at $5/quart. And you have the nuisance of replacing the filter (messy) and a REAL nuisance chopping into the engine lubrication system to install the silly thing. I think using extended drain intervals (10-20kmi) with full-synthetic oil designed for that use (Delvac-1), plus oil analysis to back it up, is cheaper and MUCH easier (less maintenance). However if you are the anal type that insists on clear, golden oil in your diesel, a bypass filter is the only way to achive that goal.

Good luck,

I have a GCF bypass filter on my '80 TD. No chopping , no cutting. It gets oil that was going to the IP and gives it right back to the IP. Replace the bypass filter every 2000 miles? so you gotta spend the 32 cents- and I do mine at 3000 miles and my OA says that's fine. A filter change does not take a full quart- really closer to half a quart. No need to change the oil at 10-20K- do it when the OA says you need to do it- and that could be quite awhile since many OTR rigs with these filters can and do run over 50-100K without the need to change oil. BTW, my oil does not/ is not clear and golden color, and it is delvac 1.

wols0003 · #36 01-29-2005, 10:29 PM

How much do the Gulf Coast bypass filters cost for the initial install ?

MTUpower · #37 01-30-2005, 11:52 AM

The GCF I have was about $150 delivered, and install was DIY.

aklim · #38 01-30-2005, 11:56 AM

I suppose that if I were to get more anal about it, I would change my oil filter after say 4000 miles and top off the oil. I'd let the oil quality sensor figure it out as to when to change the oil. When it is time, change oil and filter.

gsxr · #39 01-31-2005, 01:58 PM

For the record, I looked into the bypass filters myself, and eventually discarded the idea. What I don't like is replacing a quart of oil every 2kmi when you change the filter. While the filter is almost free (toilet paper roll), the oil is $5/qt, and in 10kmi (my normal OCI) I'd have 5 new quarts put in. So for my situation, it just makes more sense to do normal extended drain intervals (10k) with oil analysis. I could actually go longer but 10k is nearly 2 years for me (I spread annual mileage across several cars).

Side note: The bypass filters are much easier to install on older cars, like the W123 or W126. There is precious little room in the W124 engine compartment for extra plumbing, at least if you want a somewhat stock appearance (which I do). It would be pretty simple on my W123 though. Might make more sense when using dino oil instead of synthetic. (?)

Doktor Bert · #40 02-01-2005, 11:06 PM

15+ years of using Shell Rotella T 15/40 changed at 4000 mile intervals (Diesel) can't be wrong. I tested every synthetic on the market when I was actively involved in racing and we received free oil from all the top suppliers.

The conclusion we came to was the benefit of a synthetic oil was marginal at best, especially in a racing engine. At the time, we were running 427 and 429 Fords at around 7500 rpm with well over 300 lbs open valve spring pressures.

We used Valvoline 20/50 and a variety of synthetic oils. We found wear to be virtually equal regardless of the oil used.

We also felt that because we did not run thermostats on competition engines (no chance of thermostat failure during an endurance event) and coolant temperatures were around 160° to 175° the synthetic oil could offer no high-temperature benefit.

I think on a street-driven car, that idles for long periods of time, the oil may have merit in that it will lubricate better at higher temperatures, especially with a turbocharger, but even these benefits are yet to be proven.

However, a study done on NYC Taxicabs a number of years ago showed absolutely no measureable benefit when pitting a petroleum based oil against a synthetic, over 60,000 miles of use in identical 4.3 Litre GM V6 Engines.

Do a web search on "New York City Taxicab Oil Test" for details.

Also, you might like to read about the lawsuit that Mobil Oil got into over their Mobil 1 Synthetic Aviation Engine Oil. Just type in "Mobil Aviation Oil Lawsuit" and you will be amazed at what you read.

If Shell Rotella T will work in a 852 cubic inch 2-stroke V-12 Diesel with Twin Turbos feeding a Roots-Type Supercharger and keep that engine alive for over 250,000 miles, why would you want to run anything else???

That's a proven track record...Bert

gsxr · #41 02-02-2005, 12:20 AM

Lots of apples and oranges here. Race engines get frequent teardowns and even more frequent oil changes. There is a proven benefit to synthetics (usually really thin ones) squeaking out an extra 1-3% HP on race engines, but that's for sprint stuff, not endurance racing. Changing decent quality dino oil every 3k or 4k is probably fine. Your engine shouldn't get gunked up with that regimen (in theory). There are still a lot of benefits to synthetics. If they don't apply to you, fine, don't use them. But they may apply to other people. Some folks drive a LOT and just don't want to be changing oil every 3k (and it's not exactly good for the environment, either!). Extended drains with synthetics can be pushed to 20kmi or more in some cases.

The Mobil aviation lawsuit is almost entirely irrelevant to passenger car/truck applications.

braverichard · #42 02-02-2005, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken300D

Selling AMSOIL is a lot like Avon. It's called "multi-level marketing". A pyramid scheme is also multi-level marketing.

Anyone who would leave any kind of oil in a diesel MB for 35,000 miles has to be crazy. The soot buildup would turn the oil into coal slurry.

Ken300D

The 35,000 mile change interval is for gasoline engines only.

braverichard · #43 02-02-2005, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 240Joe

Yes, I do seem to remember a few lively discussions about oil.

The "change it hot and change it often" gang took offense with my practices and analysis, and tried to take me out back and beat the snot out of me.

However, after a bit of reasoning, I was able to convert them all to 10kmile change intervals.

Joe

That change it hot and change it often is an old principle that worked with much lesser oils of several years ago. Right now we are using our technological prowess to reduce environmental pollution by massively reducing the number of millions of gallons of used oil dumped in the environment. Amsoil pioneered the entire thing and continues to lead it today.

Even with dino oil, the scientific results are there to prove that 3,000 mile oil changes in gasoline powered cars is a waste as the oil is often good for more than twice as long as that. Even GM currently has a system in its cars that monitors driving styles and thus determines when to indicate that an oil change is due. I have a friend who owns a 2004 Chevrolet Monte Carlo and at 8,000 miles, she was getting scared of damaging her engine because the "change oil" light hadn't come on. I told her to relax and wait for it and eventually the light came on at 9,100 miles. I collected a sample of that oil before I changed it and the results shows that the oil was just close to needing a change - so the GM monitor was very accurate! Over the past years, mechanics, oil companies and auto makers have been preaching about 3,000 mile oil changes so much that people these days still religiously change their oil that frequently, even though there isn't a single new car manufacturer that recommends 3,000 mile oil changes. All manufacturers recommend longer intervals these days.

Even at 10& soot concentration, Amsoil's 15W-40 Heavy Duty Diesel oil contains enough zinc and other substances to keep the soot particles apart and to make sure that they don't stick together to form large particles. As a result, you can use the Amsoil in your diesel up to such a high concentration of soot. In fact, my oil analysis results have shown that Amsoil is of such superior quality that after 26,000 miles in my gas Toyota Avalon, the TBN was still pretty much like that of new oil. In fact, the company that performed the analysis advised me to continue to use the oil!!

There will always be those like you and me who believe in the new data indicating the way we should change our oils. Then there will also always be the old timers, the hard headed folks who simply refuse to change their ways and acknowledge that today's oils can last much longer than 3,000 miles even under very harsh driving conditions. All this even after you've presented scientific proof to them. I've never been about trying to change people, so we just have to live together with our different opinions and principles.

gsxr · #44 02-02-2005, 11:58 AM

Good post, BraveRichard. You'll notice most of the companies pushing 3k intervals are Iffy Boob type quick-lube joints, or McParts stores trying to sell more oil. I'm a firm believer that 3k intervals does a lot more hard to the environment than it does to save your engine. Cheap dino oils do need 3-5k intervals or they WILL break down and leave nice sludge and varnish deposits. A properly maintained engine should last just as long on dino OR synthetc. A poorly maintained engine will probably last a LOT longer when fed Group IV/V synthetics - tons more 'safety margin' of oil performance to work with.

For the record, the recommended soot limit for MB diesels is 2%, especially with hydraulic lifters. Mobil-1 can suspend up to 2% soot, Delvac up to about 4%. It would not be wise to exceed those limits, IMO.

aklim · #45 02-02-2005, 12:04 PM

I wouldn't trust the GM monitor as much as the MB one. AFAIK, the MB one uses a quality sensor that checks resistance. The GM one goes by mileage and if you reset it without changing the oil it will let you get away with it.

We can all sit around and argue as to when to change it. How about letting the oil analysis decide? Have it analysed every 50000 and go with that. If the rings are leaking and the engine bearings are shot, 3000 might not be enough. If everything is rignt, maybe 8000 is still too little.