Wrong fluids in a brake system. - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

ericnguyen · #1 06-09-2003, 11:18 PM

Dear friends:

Auto manuals always emphasize the importance of using the correct fluid in the brake system, which is either DOT 3 or DOT 4. They say that putting any other oils (engine oil, ATF, PS etc...), even just a very tiny contamination will destroy a brake system.

Could someone clarify how such an irrepairable damage will be done if an incorrect fluid is used in the brake system?

Thanks a lot.

Best regards,

Eric

rwthomas1 · #2 06-10-2003, 12:40 AM

I think that someone used some non-spec brake fluid in my car at some point. When I got it brake fluid was leaking from the rubber grommet seals that hold the reservior to the master cylinder. The seals had swelled to about twice their normal size. I flushed the brake system and changed the grommets/seals. At a later date I had a front caliper that was dragging and the other was frozen. Since replacing them and bleeding the system again all is well. No such thing as irreparable damage to a brake system. Every part is replaceable, its not cheap to do this but you can restore the entire system to like-new condition. RT

Antony · #3 06-10-2003, 07:28 AM

The wrong fluid will create serious problems! All of the seals in the entire system will react very badly, this in turn will cause your finances to react similarly. Most importantly, brake fluid has a very high boiling point that is essential to safe brake performance. The DOT 4 has a higher boiling point then does DOT 3, and you can substitute the higher for the lower (as long as the base stock is the same). Any other fluid and the brakes will fail when the fluid boils (in the worst case at very low temp's). When the fluid boils the pedle only compresses gas, thus it does not transfer any pressure to the wheel cylinders...the peddle goes to the floor and your car won't stop.

rickjordan · #4 06-10-2003, 10:30 PM

Mercedes-Benzes require at a minimum DOT 4 brake fluid.

leathermang · #5 06-10-2003, 10:43 PM

I think all the rubber brake lines would need to be replaced as a matter of principle....

JimSmith · #6 06-11-2003, 02:11 AM

This all depends on what you use and for how long and what you are willing to do to fix the system when you realize your error. When living in Germany as a kid I drove out into the country to some Roman ruins at the top of some hills near Homburg (Saarland) with two beautiful young ladies and a buddy. It was his car, a 60's vintage Peugeot 404. We had great intentions for the evening, including getting the ladies home by the prescribed hour. Well, while driving up the winding road to the ruins, the car lurched to a stop in about half a car length. This was an old logging road and it was covered in leaves, so we were driving slowly at the moment.

My buddy was driving and started laughing. I think he was laughing because he realized how lucky he was to still have both feet. A pine tree, stripped of all branches was laying on the side of the road, sharp end point toward us, and it got caught in the front suspension, then came up through the floorboard, under the clutch pedal and finally stopped under the driver seat.

Well, this really put a damper on the evening's plans. The tree was about 40' long, so we could not budge it. And the car was so stuck, we could not even start it in reverse gear and get the car to pull itself off the tree. We ended up spending about 11 hours burning through this 12" or so diameter green log, about 6' in front of the car. Beyond that length we thought we likely could not lift and pull hard enough to move it once it was burned through. All of us, for the whole evening, night and morning were fully engaged in gathering fuel (small dry sticks, branches, etc.) to support burning the outside to make it charr, then chipping the outer layer off with a screwdriver. We did not want the log to really catch fire as we had no real source of fluids to put it out. And my buddy really liked his Peugeot (all Peugeots for that matter) so he did not want to do anything that would end up having us watch it burn.

Well, once the log burned through and we put out the smoldering mass of coals we made, we rolled the car back and yanked on the log to get it loose. We ended up starting the car in reverse and backing down the hill (no steering!) while the rest of us jumped on the log. It finally came loose and we found out upon its insertion the pointy end also tore through the rubber brake line on the driver's front wheel.

With only an emergency brake we proceeded at a snails pace to drive back to drop the ladies off at their home. Along the way, my buddy recalled that he had read somewhere that MILK was a suitable emergency substitute for brake fluid. So we bought some for us for breakfast and some for the car. We fixed the hose with some spare junk in the trunk, and filled and bled the system with milk. While we had some brake response with milk, the mechanical emergency brake would outperform the milk filled hydraulic brakes. So kept creeping home with the ladies.

We dropped them off to much screaming and hysteria about 12 hours or more late, but just figured anything we said would not be believed and left. When we got back to my buddies place his Father was not real happy, noting he had been on the phone with the Mother of the two ladies (they were two very beautiful sisters) every half hour after midnight. He examined the car, and with a broad grin, related our entire evening to us, including what we used to make the fluid we used to put out the fire. He had apparently gotten so fed up with the phone calls that at sunrise he went out to look for us. We told him where we were going and he got there after we left, looked the scene over and deduced the whole night's activities.

I think seeing us with smoke and ash debris all over our hands, faces and clothes, as well as getting a whiff of our smokey scent, helped him confirm our adventure without speaking a word. He and my buddy promptly drained the milk, and replaced the damaged, milk leaking hose, flushed the system with brake fluid, refilled and bled the system and all was well with that car for several more years. They had a spare Peugeot in the garage being "restored" that they cannibalized for parts.

So, back to my point, some stuff is worse than other stuff, but you can recover from almost anything. The sooner the better though and in any case, don't suppose a foriegn fluid will actually behave like a brake fluid just because it is in the brake lines. That could kill you before you had a chance to live through changing all the rubber parts and flushing the system. Given the opportunity to relive that experience you would find DOT 4 LMA Castrol GTX brake fluid in my trunk and no milk. Although milk, as well as a number of other fluids, is an acceptable fluid for creating a disposable media for making sure those embers are not likely to start burning again....

Good luck, Jim

leathermang · #7 06-11-2003, 12:11 PM

Well, sure , that is an exception.. and a wild story... I was speaking to the normal " other" fluids found around cars... not many people bottle feed their cars milk... and thus might accidentally pour some in their brake resevour.....

on the PBS show about " the Classic cars Of Cuba.."... well, in addition to sugar we don't allow them to get brake fuid..

and they use water instead....

Ever seen pictures of them driving around in Havana ? Now you know why they are driving SLOWLY around Havana..... LOL

JimSmith · #8 06-11-2003, 11:37 PM

leathermang,

Water in regular steel lines at the temperatures typical of the Carribean should last about a week before corrosion products begin to build up. Maybe we should soften some of our policies and let them have some brake fluid, not to be confused with milk. Then again, if they had good brake fluid maybe they would drive fast enough to ruin those old cars. Another example to cite showing necessity is the Mother of Invention. Jim

dabenz · #9 06-12-2003, 08:25 PM

Great story! But you gotta tell us if you got a second date.

In Cuba, hydraulic jack oil is not prohibited. Same thing for the tractor hydraulic oils. How I know relates to a young Ensign of mine, his first "liberty port", his department head (me), too much Cuervo, taking the wrong bus from the O-Club after shutting it down, and learning about the gate the civilian workers use. The rest of the story is, um..., classified.

joshhol · #10 01-16-2005, 05:45 AM

Wow, very old post, but good readin'

Anyway, I thought they used shampoo in brake systems in cuba, not water.

punky · #11 01-16-2005, 05:05 PM

on the PBS show about " the Classic cars Of Cuba.."... well, in addition to sugar we don't allow them to get brake fuid..

and they use water instead....

I saw that show. I thought it said they used hair shampoo as break fluid.

#12 01-16-2005, 05:14 PM

Can you imagine how much longer your brakes would last without fully operating breaks?
That may not matter however seeing as how your car would be wrapped around a tree sideways

no-blue-screen · #13 07-28-2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimSmith

This all depends on what you use and for how long and what you are willing to do to fix the system when you realize your error. When living in Germany as a kid I drove out into the country to some Roman ruins at the top of some hills near Homburg (Saarland) with two beautiful young ladies and a buddy. It was his car, a 60's vintage Peugeot 404. We had great intentions for the evening, including getting the ladies home by the prescribed hour. Well, while driving up the winding road to the ruins, the car lurched to a stop in about half a car length. This was an old logging road and it was covered in leaves, so we were driving slowly at the moment.

My buddy was driving and started laughing. I think he was laughing because he realized how lucky he was to still have both feet. A pine tree, stripped of all branches was laying on the side of the road, sharp end point toward us, and it got caught in the front suspension, then came up through the floorboard, under the clutch pedal and finally stopped under the driver seat.

Well, this really put a damper on the evening's plans. The tree was about 40' long, so we could not budge it. And the car was so stuck, we could not even start it in reverse gear and get the car to pull itself off the tree. We ended up spending about 11 hours burning through this 12" or so diameter green log, about 6' in front of the car. Beyond that length we thought we likely could not lift and pull hard enough to move it once it was burned through. All of us, for the whole evening, night and morning were fully engaged in gathering fuel (small dry sticks, branches, etc.) to support burning the outside to make it charr, then chipping the outer layer off with a screwdriver. We did not want the log to really catch fire as we had no real source of fluids to put it out. And my buddy really liked his Peugeot (all Peugeots for that matter) so he did not want to do anything that would end up having us watch it burn.

Well, once the log burned through and we put out the smoldering mass of coals we made, we rolled the car back and yanked on the log to get it loose. We ended up starting the car in reverse and backing down the hill (no steering!) while the rest of us jumped on the log. It finally came loose and we found out upon its insertion the pointy end also tore through the rubber brake line on the driver's front wheel.

With only an emergency brake we proceeded at a snails pace to drive back to drop the ladies off at their home. Along the way, my buddy recalled that he had read somewhere that MILK was a suitable emergency substitute for brake fluid. So we bought some for us for breakfast and some for the car. We fixed the hose with some spare junk in the trunk, and filled and bled the system with milk. While we had some brake response with milk, the mechanical emergency brake would outperform the milk filled hydraulic brakes. So kept creeping home with the ladies.

We dropped them off to much screaming and hysteria about 12 hours or more late, but just figured anything we said would not be believed and left. When we got back to my buddies place his Father was not real happy, noting he had been on the phone with the Mother of the two ladies (they were two very beautiful sisters) every half hour after midnight. He examined the car, and with a broad grin, related our entire evening to us, including what we used to make the fluid we used to put out the fire. He had apparently gotten so fed up with the phone calls that at sunrise he went out to look for us. We told him where we were going and he got there after we left, looked the scene over and deduced the whole night's activities.

I think seeing us with smoke and ash debris all over our hands, faces and clothes, as well as getting a whiff of our smokey scent, helped him confirm our adventure without speaking a word. He and my buddy promptly drained the milk, and replaced the damaged, milk leaking hose, flushed the system with brake fluid, refilled and bled the system and all was well with that car for several more years. They had a spare Peugeot in the garage being "restored" that they cannibalized for parts.

So, back to my point, some stuff is worse than other stuff, but you can recover from almost anything. The sooner the better though and in any case, don't suppose a foriegn fluid will actually behave like a brake fluid just because it is in the brake lines. That could kill you before you had a chance to live through changing all the rubber parts and flushing the system. Given the opportunity to relive that experience you would find DOT 4 LMA Castrol GTX brake fluid in my trunk and no milk. Although milk, as well as a number of other fluids, is an acceptable fluid for creating a disposable media for making sure those embers are not likely to start burning again....

Good luck, Jim

Hey great story. Did you get a second date with those ladies? I would have taken them into the woods and said "okay, now we have to hold onto each other really tight so the animal won't eat us". Sorry, but I am a perv and cant' help it.

JimSmith · #14 07-31-2006, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no-blue-screen

Hey great story. Did you get a second date with those ladies? I would have taken them into the woods and said "okay, now we have to hold onto each other really tight so the animal won't eat us". Sorry, but I am a perv and cant' help it.

Yes, actually I met one in Seattle, WA and Anchorage, AK several years later, much less control of the situation being exerted by peculiar forces of Nature. Reentering the sphere of influence of the parents for some time was not in the cards as I believe my buddy and I were perceived for a quite a while as somewhat similar to an instant hangover after a few liters of Grappa. Jim