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  #1  
Old 03-01-2004, 06:47 PM
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Location: San Francisco, CA
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Unhappy Please help my 240D out...

Hi everyone!

I'm the proud owner (and only owner) of an 83 240D with 256K miles. I've had this car for 21.5 years and have become very attached to it. Therefore, I plan to do everything possible to keep it running and owning it for as long as possible.

The Problem: For the past 4 weeks or so, the car hesitated to start when it was cold (sitting for at least 5 hours). I would put it in the glow light position for 5 seconds, then turned the key and it would crank and crank for anywhere from 30 seconds to 1 minute before it started. However, when the car was warm, it wouldn't have a problem starting. It would crank once and start. Last week, the car decided not to start at all no matter how long it cranked. I bought a new battery and still had the same problem. Thinking that it might be the starter, I took it to a shop to have it checked. They checked the starter, battery, alternator, and everything was fine. They even replaced all 4 glow plugs (apparently they went out from me trying to start it so much). Now, the shop is telling me that the ENGINE COMPRESSION might be low, and that they need to do a compression test on the engine. However, they said that they need to do a VALVE ADJUSTMENT prior to the compression test. This compression test will tell whether the engine is completely gone, or if it does start after all this, that the engine just needed a valve adjustment.

Any way, my questions to all you knowledgeable owners are: Does all this make sense? I thought that they could do a compression test without a valve adjustment. The other question is: What else could be the problem? If I agree to let them to a compression test and valve adjustment, it would run me about $200 in addition to the $120 for the glow plugs, and only to find out that the engine is gone. That means ~$320 wasted.

I really hate to give up on my 240D that I've owned for 21.5 years, and hope that I can fix this starting problem.

Thanks to all of you for your input! This is a great forum!

Cal

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  #2  
Old 03-01-2004, 07:06 PM
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What's the history of valve adjustment on the vehicle? They should be adjusted every 15k miles.
It seems very reasonable that they want to adjust the valves before doing the compression test. It's a sign they are mechanically astute about the vehicle.
Did it start any better after it got new glow plugs?
It's possible that the compression is low with that amount of miles, but it is also possible that a combination of bad glow plugs and poorly adjusted valves was causing the problem.
I don't see any way to know that the answer is without the test.
You could just get the valves adjusted and see what happens. It it starts ok then, you could avoid the compression test and assume the compression is acceptable.
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #3  
Old 03-01-2004, 07:07 PM
engatwork's Avatar
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When was the last time the valves were adjusted? The shop is correct in wanting to insure that they are set correctly prior to the compression test.

welcome aboard
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  #4  
Old 03-01-2004, 07:16 PM
mb123mercedes
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Hi Cal.

Have you ever had the valves adjusted?
If not it might be time to do so.
Have them adjust the valves and try the car
for a few days.
You'll notice a big improvement with the
valve adjusment and you probably don't need
the compression test.
Unless there is no improvement.
You don't say if the new glow plugs made any
difference.

If no change then this applies.
Yes it does make sense to do a valve adjusment
first,because if one or more valves stay open
or closed you won't have any compression.
Just like trying to blow up a ballon with a hole in it.


The glow plugs most likely went out because they
served their purpose and deserve to be retired.
(it they where the originals).
But 5 secs preglow isn't enough.
Do you wait for the glow light to go
out?
If not,you're cranking to soon.
Also try to cycle the glow plugs two or three
times.

Louis.
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  #5  
Old 03-01-2004, 07:17 PM
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Cal

the valves must be adjusted before a compression test because the combustion chamber must be "sealed" to determine compression and the valves do that. You have had the car for 21.5 years? A compression test and "leak down" test would surely tell the story. What have you done to the engine maintenance wise. Does she use oil? I would doubt its ready for the bone yard.

I guess the price is not too bad for this work although $120.00 for $50.00 worth of parts (GPs) and 15 minutes worth of labor seem like allot.
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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
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1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
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"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #6  
Old 03-01-2004, 07:26 PM
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Thank you all for the input and the welcome.

I actually don't remember exactly when the valves were adjusted (I know, I'm bad), but they were probably done a LONG time ago (enough that I don't remember). My guess is at least 50K miles ago if not more. I guess I should let them adjust the valves prior to the compression test. However, what I was trying to get at is that I found it hard to believe that a recent lack of valve adjustment would cause the car to not start (the starter spins, engine cranks and cranks, but doesn't start). My first impression was that it was more a low engine compression (in which case the engine is bad), than a lack of valve adjustment. From what I hear though, it is possible that the valve adjustment may be causing the problem now (glow plugs were replaced). I just want to be more confident that it is possible or probable of this before I spend more money on the car when a bad engine is more probable.

Thanks again. I really love this car (my first benz ever), and want to get her up and running again soon!
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  #7  
Old 03-01-2004, 07:33 PM
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Is it starting now with the new glow plugs or not?
Yes, poorly adjusted valves can cause low compression.
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #8  
Old 03-01-2004, 07:39 PM
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Stevo,

Yes, the car uses oil alright. It uses about a quart of oil every 1-2K miles or so.

This shop charges $85 an hour, but here is Cali. all shops charge nearly the same. This is one of the cheapest, most reputable shops I found near my house.

I surely do hope it's not ready for the bone yard. Being a California car, it has zero rust spots, and has been garaged all 21.5 years I've owned it.

To answer some other questions, they didn't tell me whether or not the car "cranked" any better or faster after replacing the glow plug. They just said it still didn't start. I'll follow up on that.

Thanks again to all of you!

Quote:
Originally posted by Stevo
Cal

the valves must be adjusted before a compression test because the combustion chamber must be "sealed" to determine compression and the valves do that. You have had the car for 21.5 years? A compression test and "leak down" test would surely tell the story. What have you done to the engine maintenance wise. Does she use oil? I would doubt its ready for the bone yard.

I guess the price is not too bad for this work although $120.00 for $50.00 worth of parts (GPs) and 15 minutes worth of labor seem like allot.
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  #9  
Old 03-01-2004, 07:43 PM
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Hi Kerry,

No, it is still not starting. They said the engine has low compression. They wanted to do the valve adjustment before doing the compression test to determine whether it was the valve adjustment or the engine being bad. They warned me that the car may still not start after the valve adjustment (in which case I would need an engine rebuild or say goodbye to it), so that I needed to think whether or not I wanted to spend the money (~$300 total) to adjust the valves on a possibly bad engine.



Quote:
Originally posted by kerry edwards
Is it starting now with the new glow plugs or not?
Yes, poorly adjusted valves can cause low compression.
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  #10  
Old 03-01-2004, 07:45 PM
mb123mercedes
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Cal.

A diesel doesn't have sparkplugs to
ignite the air/fuel mixture(glow plugs don't
ignite the air/fuel mixture,they aid in heating the
incoming air ),it does this by compression of the
air in the cylinder,where then fuel is injected at
the correct time.

Now if the valves are open at this time
the air won't be compressed thus not creating
the heat needed for combustion escapes.
No combustion=no compression=no start.
Also when it is cold the incoming air strains
this process making it harder to start (that is why
when the engine is warm it will start)

The valves are adjustable,so they get out
of adjustment after some time.(they won't
open when needed or stay closed when
they need to be open).

Louis.
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  #11  
Old 03-01-2004, 07:47 PM
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Posts: 18,350
I would have them do the valve adjustment and see what happens. If it does not start after the adjustment I would then do the compression test. That's not a lot of oil usage so I suspect the problem is just that it is in need of a valve adjustment.
In a worse case scenario, if the engine is shot, I'd seriously consider putting a used engine in the vehicle.
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #12  
Old 03-01-2004, 08:06 PM
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As everyone has said, have the valves adjusted.
I doubt that your car is going to go from starting to starting only when its warm to not starting in 4 weeks and the car has just died. Mercedes diesels don't die that fast unless something breaks.
Did the car all of a sudden change anything. Noise, smoke, rough running, injector noise. Or did it just stop starting?
Something that no one has mentioned. What is the condition of the fuel? You may have developed algae in your tank and the screen in the tank is blocked. After 20 years old its probably clogged anyway.
What does the inline fuel filter look like? If it is blackish in color, not clear, then you have algae. If it is showing in the inline filter then your tank screen is probably clogged and your starving the engine of fuel.
Do you do any auto work? If so check the inline filter. If not, have the shop check it. IF they find it blackish then have the tank screen cleaned, all filters replaced and an algeacide put into the fuel. You will have to have the screen and filters replaced again in a couple of weeks (2-5 tank fulls) after the algeacide kills the algae the dead algae will clog the filters again so replace the filters.

Our 240D would run rough trying to accelerate at 60MPH. All filters were blackish. The screen in the tank was completely blocked and starving the injection pump.

One other idea is to have the tank removed and boiled out. Usually done at a radiator shop. Your shop can arrange this.
If you go this way then you boil out the fuel tank, replace all filters and then you should be good. Only the initial filter change is necessary.

I put my $$ on the algae problem.

Adjust your valves, the car will run and start better.
Use an algaecide regularly
Change all filters and fluids on a regular basis.
If you have not done the valves then you probably have not followed the normal Mercedes recommended maintenance proceedures. IF you want this car to last forever you need to regularly follow Mercedes recommendations, especially an oil and filter change every 3000-4000 miles.

Here is the product I use. There are others.

http://www.powerservice.com/

I use the Bio-kleen and the Fuel Supplement and Cetane Booster.

Dave

ps Go here to see what diesel with algae looks like.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=85130&highlight=algae
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1980 240D, owned 1990-1992
1982 300TD, owned 1992-1993
1986 300SDL, owned 1993-2004
1999 E300, owned 1999-2003
1982 300TD, 213,880mi, owned since Nov 18, 1991- Aug 4, 2010 SOLD
1988 560SL, 100,000mi, owned since 1995
1965 Mustang Fastback Mileage Unknown(My sons)
1983 240D, 176,000mi (My daughers) owned since 2004
2007 Honda Accord EX-L I4 auto, the new daily driver
1985 300D 264,000mi Son's new daily driver.(sold)
2008 Hyundai Tiberon. Daughters new car

Last edited by dmorrison; 03-01-2004 at 08:13 PM.
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  #13  
Old 03-01-2004, 08:16 PM
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Louis,

This is very good info. Thanks!

DDH, the $300 figure includes the 4 new glow plugs they've already installed, other checkup (battery, starter), plus the valve adjustment and compression test.

Any way, I'm going to have them do the valve adjustment and compression test. Hopefully, the car will start again. BTW, this is an incredibly great forum with knowledgeable benz enthusiasts. I'm glad I found this site. Thanks all again!

Cal

(Keeping fingers crossed)


Quote:
Originally posted by mb123mercedes
Cal.

A diesel doesn't have sparkplugs to
ignite the air/fuel mixture(glow plugs don't
ignite the air/fuel mixture,they aid in heating the
incoming air ),it does this by compression of the
air in the cylinder,where then fuel is injected at
the correct time.

Now if the valves are open at this time
the air won't be compressed thus not creating
the heat needed for combustion escapes.
No combustion=no compression=no start.
Also when it is cold the incoming air strains
this process making it harder to start (that is why
when the engine is warm it will start)

The valves are adjustable,so they get out
of adjustment after some time.(they won't
open when needed or stay closed when
they need to be open).

Louis.
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  #14  
Old 03-01-2004, 08:18 PM
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Location: Canton,Texas
Posts: 987
$300 for valve adjustment sounds very high..... even at $85 an hour. Shouldn't take more than an hour if they have never done it before. There are other Bay area members who can probably point you toward a cheaper shop... although it sounds like this one may know it's stuff.
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  #15  
Old 03-01-2004, 08:33 PM
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Dave, here are some answers:

Quote:
Originally posted by dmorrison
Did the car all of a sudden change anything. Noise, smoke, rough running, injector noise. Or did it just stop starting?
It just stopped starting after about 12 times of cranking and cranking for ~45 seconds (when it did start). Once the car started, the car ran like normal. No rough running, noise, smoke, etc. The car could cruise all day long at 65-70mph, and could go up to 80 mph without sweat. It also averaged 28 mpg. (I currently commute 80 miles a day in this car.)

Quote:
What does the inline fuel filter look like? If it is blackish in color, not clear, then you have algae. If it is showing in the inline filter then your tank screen is probably clogged and your starving the engine of fuel.
Do you do any auto work? If so check the inline filter. If not, have the shop check it. IF they find it blackish then have the tank screen cleaned, all filters replaced and an algeacide put into the fuel. You will have to have the screen and filters replaced again in a couple of weeks (2-5 tank fulls) after the algeacide kills the algae the dead algae will clog the filters again so replace the filters.
Very good suggestion. To be honest, I don't know how the fuel fiter looks like. I don't do any auto work on this car except for oil changes, and fluid checking (brake, power steering, etc). The rest is done at the mechanic, but the car hasn't been at the mechanic in a while (40K miles or so.) I'll have them look at the filters. Thanks again!!

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