An Idea - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

GREASY_BEAST · #1 10-10-2008, 11:44 PM

4 cylinder superturbo build on the cheap:

Piston squirters from a 5cyl
Intercooled Supercharger
4BT Bosch VE Injector Pump, possibly with governor from VW pump
"custom" injector lines

And thats all folks.

Any reason this can't/won't/shouldn't work? I know the major snag will be sticking the IP on the engine, but I'm quite sure that with the correct interface, this can be accomplished. What worries me is the cam. Is the NA cam in the 2.4L any good for a high-power forced induction configuration? If ~200hp could be extracted from this engine (should be no big deal with that IP), that would hands-down beat the 5cyl at ~200hp due to the reduced weight... see where I'm going with this? Anyone on the east coast got a 240D engine theyd like to part with?

EDIT: This is meant to be a brainstorm thread, to try to weed out snags before metal meets metal, thereby cutting costs in the long run.

#2 10-10-2008, 11:52 PM

Pistons, rods, crank, oil pump, camshaft and engine block are all different on the turbo engine.

If you want a reliable superturbo, throw the OM616 out of your mind completely and get a 617, 603 or 606.

GREASY_BEAST · #3 10-10-2008, 11:57 PM

OK, pistons, rods can be dealt with. Whats the difference between the crank and cam?

ConnClark · #4 10-11-2008, 12:20 AM

The crank is nitrogen treated to make it harder and stronger. The cam has more lift I believe.

How are the custom fuel lines supposed to help?

#5 10-11-2008, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConnClark

The crank is nitrogen treated to make it harder and stronger.

The crank is nitrided. It is put into high temperature cyanide-based salt bath, which reacts with the steel to release free nitrogen.

jt20 · #6 10-11-2008, 05:06 AM

I don't think the crank and rods should be the center of concern. It would be impressive to see you Successfully tap the oil gallery in the block and put in oil jets...

Oil pump is the achilles heel here, Its response to oil pressure demand is weak, and its driving mech sucks. If you do get that gallery tapped, your demand for oil pressure has increased and you are going to lose supply to other critical parts .. within a time frame. This will work for a while, but longevity is sacrificed.

The oil is used to extract heat from the pistons, not necessarily to lubricate them.

the head is the other weakness. even if you got a custom cam ground, the valves are not going to let enough exhaust by quick enough and they are going to expand and wear the valve guides. The turbo engines have sodium filled exhaust valves to reduce the expansion.. and I beleive a different size valve.

The intake mani is not prepared for the pressure increase you will be loading it with you may see uneven boost b/w cylinders or a cracked mani.

not hating here, I ma sure it will work for a while. I have seen N/A 617s turboed that sounded pretty good. They were fresh installs.

#7 10-11-2008, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt20

The intake mani is not prepared for the pressure increase you will be loading it with you may see uneven boost b/w cylinders or a cracked mani.

The intake manifold can handle whatever you can throw at it. I use the intake from a W115 300D with great results. MB used it on their C111 so its good enough for me!

jt20 · #8 10-11-2008, 05:26 AM

Why do they shape the turbo mani's like a pressurized tank then??

I agree.. it will def work. Just not optimal.

jt20 · #9 10-11-2008, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

The intake manifold can handle whatever you can throw at it. I use the intake from a W115 300D with great results. MB used it on their C111 so its good enough for me!

wasnt that also a turbo mani?? i saw your engine recently.. no way that is n/a

#10 10-11-2008, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt20

Why do they shape the turbo mani's like a pressurized tank then??

Packaging.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt20

wasnt that also a turbo mani?? i saw your engine recently.. no way that is n/a

No. It was only used on the W115 300D, which was non-turbo, and the C111 test cars.

The only differences between the W115 intake and the W123 non-turbo intake is the curvature of the runner tubes and inlet location.

jt20 · #11 10-11-2008, 05:45 AM

how did you find the info for the C111?... I just read that the 300d n/a engine from that era was bumped to 190hp from 80hp

Thats impressive, I am always under the impression that airflow in presurized situations becomes critical with respect to efficiency.

jt20 · #12 10-11-2008, 05:46 AM

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=103&i=6730

I think Forced posted this once before. But it supplies great hope to your turbo 240d endeavor.

#13 10-11-2008, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt20

how did you find the info for the C111?

Around the internet.

Simpler=Better · #14 10-11-2008, 02:26 PM

Is the oil cap held on by a chain? Must've had quite a bit of blowby

GREASY_BEAST · #15 10-16-2008, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt20

I don't think the crank and rods should be the center of concern. It would be impressive to see you Successfully tap the oil gallery in the block and put in oil jets...

Having never seen how these things actually work, I can't comment. However, Force Motors in India manufactures a turbo 616. If I had the money to spend, thats what I'd start with.

Quote:

Oil pump is the achilles heel here, Its response to oil pressure demand is weak, and its driving mech sucks. If you do get that gallery tapped, your demand for oil pressure has increased and you are going to lose supply to other critical parts .. within a time frame. This will work for a while, but longevity is sacrificed.

What about using a 5cyl pump?

Quote:

The oil is used to extract heat from the pistons, not necessarily to lubricate them.

the head is the other weakness. even if you got a custom cam ground, the valves are not going to let enough exhaust by quick enough and they are going to expand and wear the valve guides. The turbo engines have sodium filled exhaust valves to reduce the expansion.. and I beleive a different size valve.

Hmmmm... don't know much about this yet. The valves should only expand if EGTs are at unreasonable levels.... unless maybe the friction of higher-pressure, therefore faster-moving, particulates and gasses moving over them causes increased heating of the valve itself? Anyone around here know the feasibility of sticking turbo valves in a non-turbo head? Maybe the best thing to do is just to wait, save the pennies, and start with a Force Motors 616 long block, if such a thing can be had. It would be nice to also get one of their 5-speeds to go with it....