Calling ForcedInduction and CarTek
 

Hey guys, one more quick question on a turbo for my 4.3 liter diesel Jeep project...

I found a turbo on Craigslist that I think might work well and wanted and opinion from the two of you.

It is a T3/T4 hybrid. The hot side is stamped AR .63 and has a standard T3 mount, a standard 5 bolt wastegate assembly, and a 2-bolt output flange setup similar to the 3 bolt setup on the stock Garrett on our OM617s.
The compressor side is stamped M11 AR .60. The inlet and outlet have removable 2-bolt flanges, and the open end of the output flange is about 2-1/2"-3", but without the flange the outlet opening is only about 2". The inlet, with the removable flange taken off is only about 1-1/2" diameter, but with the flange bolted in place the inlet opening is around 2" diameter.

How would this work for the 4.3 liter diesel? The shaft has almost no play in any direction, it spins smoothly, and the leading edges of the compressor blades look good, with only a tiny amount of erosion. The kid selling it only wants $85 and it is 100% complete except for the wastegate pressure pot/acuator. What do you think?

youll have to ask lance on superturbodiesel, he isnt here anymore
wish i could help

we use those alot on honda 4cylinders sounds like the ebay special. check the cold side for oil to make sure the oil seals arent blown. Also, ask if it has a reducer to limit the oil pressure some of those turbos blow seals real easy with too much pressure. other than that, they spool pretty quick on gasoline engines not so sure about diesel. known to make 300-350 hp on a 4cylinder honda engine. Probibally a TD04 turbo.

rcounts, empty your mailbox...

Done - and sorry 'bout misspelling your handle...

Well, this one came off a 2.3 liter Ford. There was one on eBay that Forced and KarTek were recommending in another thread, and it listed the 2.3 liter Ford as one of its applications. The only differences seems to be that
1) this one is a .60 AR - the ebay one was .50 AR
2) This one has bolt-on inlet and outlet pipes instead of having fixed pipes that you attach your hoses to (like th one on eBay).
3) the inlet and outlet on this one *may* be smaller than the one on eBay. That one supposedly has a 2" inlet and 3" outlet - but I'm not sure if that is an actual measure of the oriface or if it is a measure of the pipe flange where the hoses attach.

The guy selling it claims to know quite a bit about turbos, and he claims that the .60 AR cold side will actually be better for my application (4.3 liter) than the .50 AR turbo on eBay that KarTek and Forced Indiction were recommending. That's why I wanted to pose the question here - to get the opinion of some folks who know turbos a lot better than I do.

BTW, both the hot and cold sides on this turbo seem completely free of excess oil...

For a given turbo, a .50 A/R turbine will spool faster but have more back pressure/higher potential EGT's than the .60...

OK, now I'm REALLY confused. I thought it was the compressor (cold) side that was a .50 AR (on the ebay turbo you guys recommended) - vs. .60 AR (on the one I'm looking at locally) - not the turbine (hot) side. I thought both of them had a hot side turbine with an AR of .63

OK, I did some calculations using an assumption of VE = .8 and intake air temp = 190*F

I come up with a PR of 1.47 for 7 PSI and 1.68 for 10 PSI

Calculated CFM as 274 @ 3600 RPMs (HP peak) and 121 @ 1600 RPMs (torque peak)

Assuming it will build 8 - 10 PSI at 1600, as well as at 3600 RPMs, I came up with air flows of
22.6 lbs/min @ 3600 RPMs and 9.2 lbs/min @ 1600 RPMs for 10 PSI
and
20.6 lbs/min @ 3600 RPMs and 9.1 lbs/min @ 1600 RPMs for 8 PSI

Plotting those four PR vs. lbs/min points on the map for the T3 60 trim (I'm pretty sure that is what the turbo this guy is selling is since it is the stock unit off a 2.3 liter turbo mustang) looks like the attached.

That's my first stab at it, and to my uneducated eye, it doesn't look too bad. The points are all in the 65-70 efficiency range, and the area between them takes up a big chunk of the 74% peak efficiency range of the map. Where am I going wrong here?

For peak HP, I originally got an 18.11 and 1.73 from my spreadsheet which would be PERFECT for the map and turbo you show here. It hits right in the center of the 74% island.

For the rest of the range it also looks like a good match.

OK, so now I just have to confirm that this map is for the turbo I'm looking at - that it is a T3 60 trim - would that be what the "60" on the compressor scroll (along with "M11") mean?

More than likely its a 60 trim but you'd need to measure to be sure without further data.....

There is a t4 in use on that other forum someone else mentioned.......

Well, I've also found references on the internet to the stock turbo on the 2.3 liter SVO Fords (and Merkur for that matter) being a T3 60 trim - and that is what the guy says this turbo is off of...

At this point I think I'm about ready to jump on it - at $85 and just the tiniest amount of play on the turbine side of the shaft, I think its a worthwhile deal...

I think I have the same turbo sitting in a box at home. If you had a picture, I could confirm it. I think mine came off a T-bird turbo coupe.

It has a little play side-to-side (radial) and that's OK. Axial=bad...

Yeah that should be the same turbo KarTek - why don't you sell me yours? Then I'll know what I'm getting...

Just to make sure I understand you, you're saying it is OK for the end of the shaft to move up and down a little (perpendicular to the shaft's axis of rotation), but it shouldn't move in and out (paralell to the shaft's axis of rotation), right?

Winmutt, as I understand it, I would need to measure the outer diameter of the compressor wheel (exducer?) and the diameter of the part that sits just inside the inlet (inducer?) and divide the smaller by the larger to get the trim - correct? So if this turbo has an inducer of 1.5" and a .60 trim, it should have an exducer diameter of 2.5" (1.5/2.6=.60), correct?

Ha, sorry, my T3 is going on my Unimog at some point in the future... :)

Here's your trim formula expressed as it would be in a computer program:

T=((I**2)/(E**2))*100

Depending on the program, it may also be expressed like this:

T=((I^2)/(E^2))*100

Don't ask me why they square the figures...

Because it is a ratio of the AREA of the two wheel diameters and the formula for the area of a circle is pi x diameter squared. Since pi is in both the numerator and denominator of the equation it cancels out (pi/pi = 1) and you are left with the inducer diameter squared divided by the exducer diameter squared....

As close as I can measure it, this turbo has an inducer diameter right at 46mm and exducer just a hair under 60mm - that makes it a .60 trim. So it is a T3 with a 60 AR .60 trim cold side and a 63 AR hot side. Seems like the right one to me.

It turns out this unit came out of a 2.3L T-bird turbo coupe, not an SVO Mustang. I'm assuming that since the 4.3L will produce almost twice the exhaust volume of the 2.3L that this turbo - with an exhaust scroll sized for the 2.3L - ought to spool up at significantly lower RPMs on the 4.3L. I'm also thinking that the sligtly lower backpressure and EGTs of the .63 AR of the hot side and .60 AR of the cold side are also going to be good things - again, since I'll be pushing nearly twice the volume of exhaust gas through it than what it would normally see on a 2.3L

BTW, KarTek, did I interpret your axial versus radial play comments correctly?

Yes. Some radial play (perp. to axis) is OK. I have 2 other new turbos, the HX 40 and a Garrett that's stock replacement for my truck. Both have a teeny amount of radial play that's perceptible through wiggling by the fingers.

I also have a damaged cartridge from the truck that has about 1/8" of axial play. The impeller was impacting the compressor housing and oil was leaking from the exhaust side as a result.

Would that be me???

That is where this one is at. Shaft will move less than (eyeballing it) 1/16" off center in any direction (between 1/16" and 1/8" total)

I'm really starting to get excited about this project now!

I have run into one hitch though. I have discovered that the '85 body I was going to put it into would still have to pass emmissions ONE MORE TIME - so that's a non-starter. The good news is I have found two other possibilities.

One is an '85 - with the factory 2.1L <gag> Renault turbo diesel and an automatic tranny. Engine is toast but the body and interior look like they are 10x better than the one I have. It would still have to go through emmissions one more time, BUT, since it came from the factory with a diesel, that should be no problem. It probably has 3.73 axle gears, which would allow me to put at least 31" tires on it, and they're only asking $500 for it and I could probably talk them down from that. The only drawbacks are 1) it is a 4-door and I'd rather have a 2-door, and 2) it would have to be towed home - and its 250 miles away in Spokane, WA. A 500 mile round trip in my F250 will cost me about $200 and a whole L-O-N-G day of driving (5 hours over and 5 hours back). On the other hand, being a diesel would probably make the conversion a lot easier since it would have a tach I can probably hook up to the new engine, and have a fuel return line already in place, etc.

The other one is in some ways even more exciting. It is an '84, 2-door with a good running 2.5L 4cylinder gas engine and an automatic tranny. That means it for SURE has 4.10 axles, so I could probably even run 33" tires on it. The lady has had it for 14 years, and calls it "her baby" - so I'm sure it is in really good shape. She advertised it for $1000, and said she wouldn't take less than $700 for it, but it would be worth that to me to get the lower geared axles and a good straight clean body & interior. It is in Spokane too, but since it is a good runner, I could catch a $100 flight over there and drive it back. A lot cheaper than driving my truck over to tow the other one home.

Decisions, decisisons, decisions. I'm going for a camping vacation next week, and when I get back the decision may already be made for me - depending on whether one or both are still available. Guess we'll just have to wait and see...