Oil cooler plumbing on alloy block m117/116 - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

rwd4evr · #16 03-18-2023, 11:44 PM

I found m14 banjo fittings with 12mm OD 9mm ID Barb same as the hard line on the original oil cooler lines. I measured the 3 holes in the m14 banjo bolt and surface area comes out to 9.3mm, so no restriction there. Going to see if I can get the hydraulic shop to do new lines with the original Mercedes fittings and the barbs at the other end. Thanks for the help everyone!!

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Tony H · #17 03-19-2023, 01:36 AM

I do know for sure there is a plug in the bypass valve port when there is no oil cooler.

rwd4evr · #18 03-19-2023, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony H

I do know for sure there is a plug in the bypass valve port when there is no oil cooler.

I don't get that then. If there is a valve that only sends oil to the main circuit when pressure is above 1.5 bar because oil is thick, then if that port is plugged it would try to send all oil to the cooler, not the main circuit. Is it a "plug" with a big hole in it?

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Frank Reiner · #19 03-19-2023, 02:32 PM

As can be seen in the pics of the 560 engine at the top of the 1st page of this thread, the "oil out" port on the side of the timing cover has a plug in it. USA alloy M116/117 engines were not equipped with oil coolers, hence the plug in the "oil out" port.
The internal cavity in the block that can house the cooler bypass valve may, or may not, contain a valve. Remove the forward cover cap to see if a valve is present inside. A valve could be installed even if there is no cooler; it will simply be open whenever there is oil pressure.
[In the side pic of the 560, an installed valve can be seen.]

Tony H · #20 03-19-2023, 09:15 PM

I meant 4.5 if that was not clear. Both my core 4.5 engines were from 107's and both had a solid plug in the bypass valve port. I realize you are concerned with the 5.6.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd4evr

I don't get that then. If there is a valve that only sends oil to the main circuit when pressure is above 1.5 bar because oil is thick, then if that port is plugged it would try to send all oil to the cooler, not the main circuit. Is it a "plug" with a big hole in it?

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rwd4evr · #21 03-21-2023, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony H

I meant 4.5 if that was not clear. Both my core 4.5 engines were from 107's and both had a solid plug in the bypass valve port. I realize you are concerned with the 5.6.

Yeah I got that. I'm just trying wrap my head around it without putting eyes on it. Meaning it seems that the bypass valve allows oil to NOT go to the cooler until pressure on the cooler side is reduced. So if that is plugged then wouldn't oil be shut off? Is the plug in a different oriface in there? I mean there's a plug ON the block so it's just confusing me why there's another inside. Going to open one up now.

Off subject but it's my thread so....

Have you ever seen a completely unmarked m117 block? Factory replacement I'm guessing? Just looked at the motor that was in my 450SLC when I got it and it's got no stamping at all.

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rwd4evr · #22 03-24-2023, 02:38 AM

Okey dokey, now I'm getting somewhere. Here's what I found. The low pressure bypass valve is in the 450sl block with original oil cooler. I'm going to need to make a tool to get it out of there. Tony, is this where you were saying there was a solid plug? If so I don't see how the oil would get to the filter at all. Looking into the same port on the alloy 5.6 it's wide open to outside of filter which should be pressure from the pump. There wouldn't be any reason for it to be blocked when the outside plugs are there instead of cooler ports. So from what I can tell on my 4.5 my cooler probably gets a partial routing of oil without the spring loaded valve, probably not a lot if there is not a valve in there. There is a solid plug in the block inside where the filter base mounts and I'm not sure where that guy is going. I'm pretty confident all will be good as long as that bypass valve is in there. I'm still working on fittings since they are m14 instead of m15/16 like the iron block. Looks like banjo may be it but I'm hoping the hydraulic shop has an adapter to use the factory hoses, or I need to make some. I found banjo fittings and 300+psi rubber hose,but I'm not really thrilled about the idea of just rubber with whatever synthetic weave for all my oil. Pretty sure the Mercedes stuff has braided steel in there. Ugh. Maybe I need to go AN?

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Tony H · #23 03-24-2023, 11:45 PM

t's not a deep plug-it just plugs the hole, not the passage in the block. I once had a core engine from a 280SE 4.5 that I tried to get the bypass valve out of (the front cover was still on the engine). I made a tool from a chisel ground to a "V" that matched the angle of the valve but I could not remove the valve. If the front cover was off I think I could have removed it.

rwd4evr · #24 03-25-2023, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony H

t's not a deep plug-it just plugs the hole, not the passage in the block. I once had a core engine from a 280SE 4.5 that I tried to get the bypass valve out of (the front cover was still on the engine). I made a tool from a chisel ground to a "V" that matched the angle of the valve but I could not remove the valve. If the front cover was off I think I could have removed it.

Oh, well yeah there's not a fitting with an open end. There's a plug instead of a fitting. Two on an iron r107 block.

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rwd4evr · #25 03-25-2023, 04:52 AM

Gotcha!! I tried a couple things. I had a 3/8 extension I had cut the driven end off to fit in a drill so I cut a slit in it. A washer that fit in the groove pretty nice just twisted like a pretzel and actually marked the edge of the ring in there. I thought I was screwed. So I found an allen wrench that fit the groove perfectly and trimmed it with a 45 on the ends then another straight piece to support it and help cram it in. Figured it was the most square edged hard metal I had around. I crazy glue and baking soda bonded them in really just to keep from losing them down a galley. Pushing and hand tools were a fail. It was awkward and I was alone. Didn't really want to but I grabbed the 1/2" impact. I could at least push really hard. Tried on 1 then 2 and nothing. Rattled right and left a few times. Took a breath and turned it on 3(full kill bolt breaker), and it popped loose! Victory. Had to remove the filter housing to push the parts out of the front but I got it. Also went to the hydraulic shop today and ordered an adapter to run stock hoses to the smaller m14 threaded holes. The way he described them the sealing surface is slightly different so I'm a bit leary. I think I'm ordering banjo fittings too and they have hose and can swage new lines. If it comes to it. Sucks I have to pull the oil pan to install it because of the dipstick but in reality it's weeping a little I'm doing the rear main and pretty much everything else too so WTF. I looked in the oil cap I think for the first time and even though this thing showed 140,000 on the clock it looks great and cared for inside. No brown coating/staining on the cams or cam towers or inside the head surface. It was a pretty nice driver that got rear-ended. Going to pressure wash it tomorrow/today and get it ready for timing chain and all the bits involved. May paint it aluminum if it's still dingy. It has some white crusties so it may not clean up. Thanks for the input guys!

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rwd4evr · #26 08-29-2023, 06:59 PM

I'm back on the swap mission after getting sidetracked. The fittings I have come up with that fit the alloy block and oil filter housing are power steering fittings. My concern is the flow capabilities. The ID is a hair over 8mm, I could probably knock it out to 9mm safely with a OD of 12mm thread root. The PS pipe is probably <9mm ID with a 10mm OD. The iron block fittings are 10mm id and pipe. I'm wondering if the oil cooler fittings are slightly restrictive and I have the bypass valve in the block, would I have any reduction in oil pressure or would the bypass valve just let some by without causing an issue? Maybe it would be best to put a slightly lighter spring in it? Or maybe just put a restriction in the bypass valve hole to always allow some flow but make the oil cooler the path of least resistance? (Edit meaning here to not use the spring loaded bypass and just instal a plug with a hole to let some oil through if that was unclear).

I have confirmed that the motor in my car with no bypass valve flows very little oil and only gets warm even when I'm beating it's brains out(always). With hot lap sessions in our new grouping format at my home track after probably 6-7 consecutive laps drifting, mostly full throttle 4500-6000 rpm never going forward into the air im getting up in the 215-225 range and I don't ever want the alloy block up there. I'm installing radiator sprayers to come on at 195 but I don't want to be on them unless it emergency. I have a tire cooling sprayer setup so the 5 gallon tank is already there.

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rwd4evr · #27 08-30-2023, 04:15 AM

After reading back through this thread I see it's telling me at 1.5 bar it will bypass oil. That's good I guess. I calculated that the area of the 10mm hole in the original oil cooler fittings is a 78.54mm² area and a 9mm area is 63.62mm². amazing that 1mm difference is nearly 20% flow decrease. An extra 2.2mm hole would make them the same. I'm thinking I should put a 2mm hole or a groove in the bypass valve seat to allow correct flow at all times without forcing the oil pump to overcome that bypass pressure constantly.

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zjdgfu · #28 08-30-2023, 04:34 AM

this has been very helpful

rwd4evr · #29 08-30-2023, 06:04 PM

After finding the fitting that fits I think I'm back on the banjo fitting. Otherwise I need to somehow adapt from 10mm up to 12mm that the hard line is attached to the fitting I'll be re using on the cooler end. So I got 12mm outlet 14mm I'd banjo fittings and can have the hydraulic shop make new hoses with my fittings. It flows more than the 8mm Id of the ps fitting anyway. I'm still not sure if I should try to get extra flow with a hole/groove in the bypass or just let it do it as is.

rwd4evr · #30 08-31-2023, 11:10 PM

Any thoughts on eliminating the damper/regulator from the system? I was under the assumption it was just a damper, I could have sworn the one I put on my 4.5 was a open pass through with no restriction. Just checked this one I got off a 3.5 and it barely lets any air through. Could this be a thermostatic regulator? If I'm running oil through the cooler why would I want it restricted ? I'll have all high pressure hose, I can't imagine the stock cooler can't handle 60-70 psi(whatever max is).

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