Ford, GM, Honda and Toyota Spy on Motorists - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

TN-W124 Diesel · #1 12-29-2004, 02:50 PM

Ford, GM, Honda and Toyota Spy on Motorists

George Orwell's novel "1984" foretold of a society where government tracks every person. But even he might never have imagined that cars could be used to spy on individuals.

Most people don't realize that day has arrived.

According to the Christian Science Monitor, 30 million vehicles manufactured by Ford, GM, Honda and Toyota include a "black box" that records a plethora of information.

The "Event Data Recorder," or EDR, at one time recorded only basic information such as whether an airbag deployed during an accident and whether drivers wore seat belts.

But, says the paper, now many of the devices are recording the last several seconds of data before an accident. That includes how fast the vehicle was traveling, whether or not the driver applied the brakes, and engine speed.

Some of this data has already been used to convict drivers of criminal acts such as murder and manslaughter.

"The main purpose of the EDR is to get data after a crash to help us understand how the airbags worked," said Alan Adler, manager of product-safety communications at General Motors in Warren, Mich.

Though he says GM customers' privacy is "very important to us," he goes on to rationalize that the device "doesn't record anything that isn't true."

That's not the point, critics say.

"This is another example of where technology has outstripped the law and certain assumptions of how the world works," Jay Stanley of American Civil Liberties Union told the Monitor.

There is no regulation regarding the amount of data that can be tracked, stored and turned over to authorities, he said.

"If GM decided tomorrow to track three months of data instead of five seconds, there's nothing that would make them have to tell anybody," Stanley said.

Now even insurance companies are getting into the mix.

The left-wing company Progressive Insurance, a heavy donor to Democrats, is managing "TripSense," a pilot program using 5,000 drivers in Minnesota to market a device that records up to six months of driving habits.

Progressive says drivers can decide whether or not they want to hand over that data to insurance companies.

Other companies are marketing similar devices they say are designed to allow parents to monitor a teen-ager's driving habits.

In the end, however, the concern is that information will be eventually used — whether by insurance companies, police or some government agency — to further control citizens.

If a cop were to pull over a driver while he's not speeding, for example, "will your EDR tell him that five miles or five days earlier you were?" AutoWeek magazine's Bob Gritzinger wrote.

mzsmbs · #2 12-30-2004, 12:21 AM

my fords are too old to have such gizmos in them and my other vehicles are of different marks...

#3 12-30-2004, 09:37 AM

I was discussing this with a forum member the other day, Ferrari has been recording driver activity since 1990.

Look at it this way, if the blackbox is used in the case of an accident it could be the determining factor that decides your innocence. I say lets use it, the main people who are against this stuff are the ones that the system would hurt.

MTI · #4 08-18-2010, 12:59 PM

Recycling an old thread . . .

The Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 2010 is expected to come up for legislative consideration later this year. An element of the legislation would require all vehicles sold in the US to have an EDR (currently, Mercedes, BMW and Audi do not have EDRs) and that specific data be captured on the devices for later retrieval.

SwampYankee · #5 08-18-2010, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

Recycling an old thread . . .

The Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 2010 is expected to come up for legislative consideration later this year. An element of the legislation would require all vehicles sold in the US to have an EDR (currently, Mercedes, BMW and Audi do not have EDRs) and that specific data be captured on the devices for later retrieval.

Given the not-so-surprising development that some unscrupulous Toyota owners tried to blame their sudden acceleration issues on the manufacturer rather than admitting operator error it would probably behoove the manufacturers to install EDR to cover their own a$$e$.

Hatterasguy · #6 08-18-2010, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

Recycling an old thread . . .

The Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 2010 is expected to come up for legislative consideration later this year. An element of the legislation would require all vehicles sold in the US to have an EDR (currently, Mercedes, BMW and Audi do not have EDRs) and that specific data be captured on the devices for later retrieval.

Yep, and when I get a car with one I'll figure out exactly which black box that is, and if I ever get into an accident it will "break".

Screw the government is my motto, they don't need to keep track of us.

MTI · #7 08-18-2010, 02:47 PM

Both the House and Senate versions of the amendments to the law make the EDR data the property of the owner or lessee of the car and the information only retrievable by or with the permission of the owner . . . EXCEPT . . .

when subject to court order or other law, which might also include the passive "implied consent" given to local law enforcement, insurance companies and others. There's also provisions that manufacturers have access to the data in defect investigatons.

Angel · #8 08-18-2010, 02:48 PM

Better add Kia to that list - I was reading such info in my '09 Sedona owner's manual that it records data on what we going on before the airbags go off (and other times I'm sure...)

I figured that it'd be pretty easy to disable a system like OnStar that requries an RF connection to communicate (block/disable the antenna- it'll just assume that its in a big parking garage the whole time...) but to disable data collection in my Sedona, I'd have to reflash the ECU (is what it sounds like)...

...and that might happen after the warranty is up =)

Anyone got a good re-flash for a Hyundai Lamba (3.8l V6) ? my Minivan could use some juice =)

-John

LUVMBDiesels · #9 08-18-2010, 03:14 PM

Wait until the cars can be 'pinged' by LEOs via wifi! Imagine you are going down the street doing the speed limit when you pass an antenna on the highway that triggers the car to upload it's data. A week later you get a ticket for speeding based on the GPS location of he car and it's recorded speed, but from an incident that happened days before the car uploaded the data.

Add to this a scenario where if a LEO is chasing you he can signal the car's ECU to cut power to the engine gradually forcing you to stop...

I am going to keep my non-electronic SDL forever!

MTI · #10 08-18-2010, 03:33 PM

Just wait till the Google Chrome Car is released . . . the car will be free, but as you drive, you'll get custom tailored advertisments on the sat/nav whether you want them or not . . .

LUVMBDiesels · #11 08-18-2010, 03:40 PM

^^ Love it!
Of course we already have this happening...

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/06/license-plates-that-flash-ads-considered-by-california-lawmakers.html

Pooka · #12 08-18-2010, 03:52 PM

This took place so long ago I cannot find any reference to it, so, just going by memory...

GM built a number of Caddy Sevilles that had some sort of engine problem. Maybe it was the 4.1 engine wearing out at 60,000 miles, but if not it was something just as bad.

Owners took their cars to the dealership and the dealers downloaded info from a device that recorded a number of things, one of which was if the car had ever exceeded 55 mph. If this showed up GM claimed the car had been 'abused' since the driver had exceeded the National Speed Limit.

What GM failed to understand was that the average Seville owner was in a position to sue them for everything they had, and even in the pre-internet days a number of these people got together and filed a class-action lawsuit over this which they then won.

Also.....

I have worked a number of accidents in the oil biz where a lot of data had been gathered by such devices. Management always made a big show out of how they would now be able to catch people when they screwed-up, but the reality was that the data recorded always showed that the equipment failed and the operators did everything right when correcting the situation.

It is good to be aware of these devices as I have seen more than one persons job saved due to them. When management is faced with accepting the responsibilty for an accident due to lack of maintaince or laying all the blame on an Operator they will try to hang the Operator every time.

If you are Operating a car or a Refinery correctly and an accident takes place you will be glad these recorders exist.

pawoSD · #13 08-18-2010, 04:30 PM

People that really don't want an "EDR" will just find and disable it. I'd be one of those people.

MTI · #14 08-18-2010, 04:34 PM

Part of the proposed legislation requires manufacturers to make the devices tamper resistant. Presumably, meeting that federal requirement in a reasonable manner would be to tightly integrate it into the car's electronic managnement system.

okyoureabeast · #15 08-18-2010, 05:47 PM

I was under the impression there are a few state laws that allow for the disabling of such electronic data recorders.

Kudos to Germans for not violating our privacy. I hate any type of "mandated" recording.