93' Mercedes 500E- are they that grand? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

86560SEL · #1 01-09-2005, 07:44 PM

I was searching e-bay by location for nearest cars and seen this 1993 500E. This car is listed on auction by our local Mercedes-BMW-Porsche dealer.

I am a bit stunned when I seen the high bid. Seems like it is a rare car, but at this price for a 1993- it must be a very desirable model.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6332&item=4516957942&rd=1

Pete Geither · #2 01-09-2005, 08:25 PM

If I had the disposable income right now I would buy it in a minute for that amount. I feel it would be worth every penny with that mileage and the proper maintenence.

shane · #3 01-09-2005, 08:48 PM

With that low miles (for a mercedes anyway) the price should be somewhere in the mid twenties. It is a rare car, well appreciated, and a good resale color combination. It really needs to go to a collector and not to someone who will mile it out of its mind.

gerryvz · #4 01-09-2005, 09:19 PM

I disagree. These cars were meant to be driven, and well-maintained examples have gone well over 300,000 miles with hard driving. Any knowledgeable MB mechanic will tell you that the M119 was the best V-8 that MB did, certainly better than the current "modular" unit.

Only 1,500 500E-E500s were brought into the US, so yes, they are fairly rare cars. Probably 100 of those 1,500 have been wrecked or otherwise junked/parted out.

The 500E provides a very rare combination of a car that is extremely high-performance yet is very tractable for day-to-day use as a daily driver. It is competent in any weather and is easily modified or is a perfectly great car kept stock.

At the current time, the market for high-mileage, average cars with some interior and exterior wear is around $10-15,000. This would be for cars with 150,000 and more miles on them.

Mid-mileage cars, with normal cosmetics but in good to very good condition would run $15,000-20,000. This would be cars with 90,000-150,000 miles.

Low-mid mileage cars with very good to excellent cosmetics continue to hold values at or above $20,000, going up to around $22,000-23,000. This would be for cars with 60,000-90,000 miles.

The lowest mileage cars go up from there. Normally these are in excellent condition cosmetically and have in the neighborhood of 40,000-60,000 miles on them. Count on $22,000-30,000 for these cars.

Extremely low mileage cars, with 5,000-35,000 miles on them, start at $30,000 and have been purchased in recent months for prices in the range of $35,000-40,000.

Modified examples by AMG, Brabus, RennTech and such also command significantly high prices, depending on the extent of the modifications that were performed. I have seen 6.0L modified cars in the $30,000-50,000 range over the past year or two.

Location in the country does have some bearing on prices. The west cost seems to garner higher prices than I've seen in the East and midwest. I would avoid any car that has spent any time on the East Coast or midwest if it has been driven in the winter on salty roads. Southern and West Coast cars are always a safe bet as far as rust and surface corrosion goes. Even a car that was driven one season on salty roads will have surface corrosion. Once this happens, it's all downhill over time from there. Once you have surface corrosion, you have to replace the part to get rid of it.

Deals are out there, but in general you get what you pay for. I have seen a couple of 500E deals in recent months where cars have been misrepresented, including one low-mileage car on eBay that was sold earlier this year. You want to get a car that has a FOR SURE honest history, and Carfax is NOT the way to discern this (though it is one arrow in a quiver of tools to use in helping discern this). There are plenty of cars out there with all books and records, owned by one or two owners, that are strong contenders.

For ALL purchases, a pre-purchase inspection by a qualified mechanic should be performed. Many owners crashed these cars and had them repaired because they were still new enough 8-10 years ago that they were worth repairing. Repairs can often be obvious to the trained eye by looking for the presence of certain original factory parts and stickers (for example on the radiator cross member, and on the stock fenders, hood, trunk lid, etc.). Paint overspray is another direct giveaway. Unfortunately most people aren't trained at what to look for, and they are all caught up in the emotion of owning the rare 500E, that they tend to gloss over the previous history of the car. A good mechanic or shop owner will put the car up on a lift, sniff around it, and can tell you a lot about the car's history and care just by looking at the condition of certain components.

So, DO NOT BUY A 500E WITHOUT A PRE-PURCHASE INSPECTION.

The other rule of thumb is that "great" deals are usually too good to be true. Avoid "good" deals. Pay for a correct car up front and you won't be sorry. Unfortunately 90% of all people are far too cheap to do this -- they want the bargain. Sometimes they get one, but far too often they get burned. If money is an issue for you, don't get a 500E -- get a diesel instead.

Lastly, I'd be wary of extremely low mileage cars. Even if they resided in climate controlled garages, were collector-owned, and waxed every other day, very often cars that haven't been driven have far more problems than cars that have been driven. An example: a fellow I know here in Portland purchased a 500E this year for a price in the mid $30K range, that had 11,000 verified one-owner miles on it. He drove it home to Portland from Texas where it was. Somewhere in southern California, he blew a hose. Taking the car into a dealer, he ended up having all rubber hoses replaced under the hood because several of them were shot -- age and misuse. If the car had been used more often, this likely wouldn't have been such a major issue (though all hoses do wear out and 10 years is pushing it for any hose).

So, good luck if you decide to get the car. Remember that you get what you pay for. It's a good life lesson. If you aren't prepared to pay the price, you should either wait until you can, or consider something else.

Cheers,
Gerry

86560SEL · #5 01-09-2005, 11:00 PM

Thanks for the replies. It does mention that these are fairly rare cars- at least in the USA.

One thing I did just notice, is that while this car is here in northeast Tennessee, it has Palm Beach County, Florida plates on it.

Perhaps someone has a home here and in Florida and traded in the car here and they just left the plates on it?

If this is the case- I am sure that rust is not an issue. I am not sure how the Florida "salt air" effects cars, but we know that snow is not a issue in Florida, nor is it really here in northeast Tennessee, because we do not get a lot of snow. Our average yearly snowfall total is only about 18 inches- and even then it is rarely on the ground for more than a couple of days- not to mention that over the past few years we have not even seen that and so far this winter- only a light dusting, so rust is definitely not an issue on cars that are from around here.

Lot of good info- thanks Gerry, Shane and PJ.

gerryvz · #6 01-09-2005, 11:09 PM

Your best idea for research on these cars is the following web site:

http://www.500ecstasy.com

Cheers,
Gerry

shane · #7 01-10-2005, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerryvz

I disagree. These cars were meant to be driven, and well-maintained examples have gone well over 300,000 miles with hard driving. Any knowledgeable MB mechanic will tell you that the M119 was the best V-8 that MB did, certainly better than the current "modular" unit.

Only 1,500 500E-E500s were brought into the US, so yes, they are fairly rare cars. Probably 100 of those 1,500 have been wrecked or otherwise junked/parted out.

The 500E provides a very rare combination of a car that is extremely high-performance yet is very tractable for day-to-day use as a daily driver. It is competent in any weather and is easily modified or is a perfectly great car kept stock.

At the current time, the market for high-mileage, average cars with some interior and exterior wear is around $10-15,000. This would be for cars with 150,000 and more miles on them.

Mid-mileage cars, with normal cosmetics but in good to very good condition would run $15,000-20,000. This would be cars with 90,000-150,000 miles.

Low-mid mileage cars with very good to excellent cosmetics continue to hold values at or above $20,000, going up to around $22,000-23,000. This would be for cars with 60,000-90,000 miles.

The lowest mileage cars go up from there. Normally these are in excellent condition cosmetically and have in the neighborhood of 40,000-60,000 miles on them. Count on $22,000-30,000 for these cars.

Extremely low mileage cars, with 5,000-35,000 miles on them, start at $30,000 and have been purchased in recent months for prices in the range of $35,000-40,000.

Modified examples by AMG, Brabus, RennTech and such also command significantly high prices, depending on the extent of the modifications that were performed. I have seen 6.0L modified cars in the $30,000-50,000 range over the past year or two.

Location in the country does have some bearing on prices. The west cost seems to garner higher prices than I've seen in the East and midwest. I would avoid any car that has spent any time on the East Coast or midwest if it has been driven in the winter on salty roads. Southern and West Coast cars are always a safe bet as far as rust and surface corrosion goes. Even a car that was driven one season on salty roads will have surface corrosion. Once this happens, it's all downhill over time from there. Once you have surface corrosion, you have to replace the part to get rid of it.

Deals are out there, but in general you get what you pay for. I have seen a couple of 500E deals in recent months where cars have been misrepresented, including one low-mileage car on eBay that was sold earlier this year. You want to get a car that has a FOR SURE honest history, and Carfax is NOT the way to discern this (though it is one arrow in a quiver of tools to use in helping discern this). There are plenty of cars out there with all books and records, owned by one or two owners, that are strong contenders.

For ALL purchases, a pre-purchase inspection by a qualified mechanic should be performed. Many owners crashed these cars and had them repaired because they were still new enough 8-10 years ago that they were worth repairing. Repairs can often be obvious to the trained eye by looking for the presence of certain original factory parts and stickers (for example on the radiator cross member, and on the stock fenders, hood, trunk lid, etc.). Paint overspray is another direct giveaway. Unfortunately most people aren't trained at what to look for, and they are all caught up in the emotion of owning the rare 500E, that they tend to gloss over the previous history of the car. A good mechanic or shop owner will put the car up on a lift, sniff around it, and can tell you a lot about the car's history and care just by looking at the condition of certain components.

So, DO NOT BUY A 500E WITHOUT A PRE-PURCHASE INSPECTION.

The other rule of thumb is that "great" deals are usually too good to be true. Avoid "good" deals. Pay for a correct car up front and you won't be sorry. Unfortunately 90% of all people are far too cheap to do this -- they want the bargain. Sometimes they get one, but far too often they get burned. If money is an issue for you, don't get a 500E -- get a diesel instead.

Lastly, I'd be wary of extremely low mileage cars. Even if they resided in climate controlled garages, were collector-owned, and waxed every other day, very often cars that haven't been driven have far more problems than cars that have been driven. An example: a fellow I know here in Portland purchased a 500E this year for a price in the mid $30K range, that had 11,000 verified one-owner miles on it. He drove it home to Portland from Texas where it was. Somewhere in southern California, he blew a hose. Taking the car into a dealer, he ended up having all rubber hoses replaced under the hood because several of them were shot -- age and misuse. If the car had been used more often, this likely wouldn't have been such a major issue (though all hoses do wear out and 10 years is pushing it for any hose).

So, good luck if you decide to get the car. Remember that you get what you pay for. It's a good life lesson. If you aren't prepared to pay the price, you should either wait until you can, or consider something else.

Cheers,
Gerry

Yes the 500E is durable. No you should not buy a very low mile car and drive it in the ground (high mile it) like a selfish, self-centered, self decadent, self delusional bastard with no respect for what the first owner did to save the car from becoming a rolling POS like most 500E's are now. Yes miles hurt more than correct storage. ALWAYS! Ask collectors, ask judges of car shows with pedigree, or just ask a REAL mechanic who works on his own cars and restores cars because he likes them so much. Or ask me as I am all the above with grand national award winning cars I have restored.
Now another bit of misinformation is the idea that the 500E is still an extremely high perfomance car. It was when new. It is now merely average. It is not any faster than any cadillac northstar, or a new honda accord V6. No BS. Buy it for its looks, build, and now attainable price; but do not buy it because you think it will be faster than most cars.
If you are looking to drive your 500E say more than 10k miles a year buy a 90k mile one that looks and runs good with records. These cars are already lost to collectors but still have alot of life left in them before the fatal crusher day.

gerryvz · #8 01-10-2005, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shane

Yes the 500E is durable. No you should not buy a very low mile car and drive it in the ground (high mile it) like a selfish, self-centered, self decadent, self delusional bastard with no respect for what the first owner did to save the car from becoming a rolling POS like most 500E's are now. Yes miles hurt more than correct storage. ALWAYS! Ask collectors, ask judges of car shows with pedigree, or just ask a REAL mechanic who works on his own cars and restores cars because he likes them so much. Or ask me as I am all the above with grand national award winning cars I have restored.

It's obvious you have issues with doing what automobiles were meant to do: be driven. That's why we call them auto-MOBILES -- all cars have been and are designed to get the occupants from one place to another. That's the purpose of the beast.

To call someone who uses a machine as it is supposed to be used, a "selfish, self-centered, self-decadent, self-delusional bastard" is plumb crazy!

And by the way, if you have bothered to look at shows and auctions in the past few years, you will see that unrestored, original cars (well-kept) are gaining credibility very fast with judges over those over-restored bottomless-wallet monstrosities that generally are incorrect restorations anyway.

Your attitude is extremely condescending and arrogant. You certainly don't come off to me as any sort of knowledgeable or trustworthy expert based on your attitude. Generally, mature people tend to have a more measured approach, which is the antithesis of your namecalling, "I know what I'm talking about" approach. I don't care what you've judged or owned; until you have owned a 500E you know little to nothing about them. (If you do currently own or have previously owned a 500E then I will stand corrected on this point.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by shane

Now another bit of misinformation is the idea that the 500E is still an extremely high perfomance car. It was when new. It is now merely average. It is not any faster than any cadillac northstar, or a new honda accord V6. No BS. Buy it for its looks, build, and now attainable price; but do not buy it because you think it will be faster than most cars.
If you are looking to drive your 500E say more than 10k miles a year buy a 90k mile one that looks and runs good with records. These cars are already lost to collectors but still have alot of life left in them before the fatal crusher day.

The 500E IS still a very high performance sedan by today's standards. Its numbers continue to be extremely competitive with today's performance/sports sedans; the 500E is not the pack leader but it certainly continues to hold its own more than adequately.

Now, for performance. My own 1994 E500 has obtained quarter-mile times of 12.89 seconds at over 108 MPH; 13.1-13.2 second times are achieveable and easily repeatable. That figure is FASTER than most performance cars on the road today. My car has been modified.

I know many collectors who own higher mileage 500Es (50-80,000 miles) and these cars are extremely well-kept. You sound as if you purchase cars and never drive them, preserving them in some sort of airtight bag and bringing them out into the sunshine once a year.

All I can say is, to each his own. If you think these cars (even "correctly" preserved) are viable as running cars, you are patently incorrect. There is a saying among many of us collectors: "Garages Kill". This means that undriven cars rot due to age, ozone, disintegrating rubber and fluids, dried out seals, flat spots on the tires, compressed springs, evaporated gas - the list is endless.

86560SEL, I would pay little heed to "shane's" post. Take some time and do your research, hang out over at www.500ecstasy.com, get a feel for what the cars require, and read over what i mentioned above about current pricing. Decide what you can afford and purchase accordingly. If you want to purchase a 10,000 mile car and drive it for 10 years and make it into a 150,000 mile car, by all means do it. It's a free country. And by doing this, you will drive poor souls like "shane" crazy.

He must really go nuts seeing new cars being driven around the streets... can you imaging having to shoulder that burden on a daily basis, of watching precious automotive machines actually being driven, to see their precious new lives, cosmolene and interior smells slipping gradually away... Oh man, it's even starting to depress me as I write this.

Cheers,
Gerry

engatwork · #9 01-10-2005, 07:34 PM

86560SEL there is one here in town that I put on ebay earlier this summer that did not sell. It is as good as you will find and has been owned by a MB enthusiest/independent MB repair shop owner. Let me know if you are interested and I'll dig the info backup. It is a low mileage southern car.

Dan Smith · #10 01-10-2005, 08:22 PM

My theory about autos and their use is in tune with Gerry's. "Use em or loose em". While not original, it explains a lot. In my auto experience I have observed a museum that properly maintains their autos. It's a St Louis, private museum not open to the public and kept only because of the owners love of all things "auto related". Their method, beyond the normal full fluid changes is top secret. The secret? Yes indeed, they, the staff, drive every auto about ten miles or 20 minutes, monthly. As the curator stated, they die if they are not driven.
I refer to my own experiences and I believe, my originated saying, "Garages Kill". That slogan is meant to urge push the "lazy" auto enthusiast to participate with his auto and put it on the road.
In my own case, numerous serious problems have developed while my favorite Benz model was in for lengthy repairs. Front or rear main seals, tranny, and steering box leaks have occured in those waits. This started a serious search and comparison with my old war horses. The autos in question are very complicated, all 6.3s. This still applies even to the simple Mustang. If they are parked, they become "nice looking" junk.
As an earlier poster confessed, I too, in my misquided youth, participated in Benz concourse events. My 97 point 6.3 was beat by a convert that had trouble starting and then idleing. Coughed, popped, and puked smoke. I lost. I retired. Concourse events are politics and I am not the political type.
Moral, drive them. This is my best advice to keep a Benz in nice running shape.
Now a question. Can new Caddy makes with a North Star engine run the 1/4 mile in sub 13 seconds? I don't believe it is possible. I have checked my Road and Track and Car and Driver. The only way to drop below 13 seconds, is to acquire the real odd and VERY costly, types. My experience tells me that great Vipers are around 13 to 13.5 seconds. SVT Mustangs around 13.3. Cobras around 13 7 to 14 seconds. Help me out, what models drop below 13 seconds, not counting American Modified Iron?????

Jim's500E · #11 01-11-2005, 10:53 AM

That 500E for sale looks very nice....a pretty common color combo along with the black ones though....the rims do alot for the look...the headlites don't !

But the price appears to be high IMO....great if it sells for 25K...its not worth that much in todays auto climate....but there are folks who don' care much about price and then maybe this car is for them. I'd say the low mileage would make me think one will have more probelms than one that has been regularly motored around....much like any car.

Everyone should know by now that a 10 year old plus 500E is going to start having age related problems like with the wiring harnesses, rubbers, seals, etc...again, much like any other 10 year old plus car. Mileage doesn't mean too much in that regard in this cars case.

As for rust, I say don't worry too much about it. MB has done a great job of corrosion protection on their modern cars but really, where there is water coming into contact with metal, you will have rust and corrosion PERIOD...with or without the winter salts (which, of course, contributes to the acceleration of rust when not washed away by the time the weather warms up above freezing). BTW, salt is naturally occuring compound...it is EVERYWHERE; in the air, moreso near the coasts, it is in the rain, it is in your drinking/washing waters, and even precipitates out of concrete and asphalt. You can bury a dead body in salt and come back in a 1000 years to check it out, but as soon as salt dissolves into water and the temp is right, then you will have the chemical reaction which we all loath to see on a car....

shane · #12 01-11-2005, 01:42 PM

You guys are generally interested in daily drivers. That is fine. Nothing wrong with that. I have several daily drivers.
There IS something wrong with taking a low mileage car and making it a high mileage car after many years of careful saving by the original owner.

Period.

Any knowledgable car collector WILL tell you the same. The 500E pictured on Ebay needs to go to a collector and not a "daily driver guy." Daily driver guys need to stick to the common used car and away from the rare good ones. That is all I am saying. Besides you driver guys think the price is too high anyway, which is good. And yes I realize this site is dominated by drive it everyday guys who just don't get what I am saying. Understood.

BTW, excellent original cars have always been worth as much as restored gems. THAT IS LOW MILEAGE, NO REPAINT, ones. Not 250k mile, repaint two times by Maaco, two previous accidents, six owner history cars. Now there are exceptions to the rule, but by and large this is it.

PS 12.9 is great for a 500E, what modifications have you done? I suppose you know a newer E55 does 12.7 at 117mph, before you Renntech it. New Mustang Cobra beats a 500E as well too. So does a corvette, and cadillac CTS-V.

gerryvz · #13 01-11-2005, 02:22 PM

Well, I still don't agree with you. Cars should be driven, they are MADE to be driven, not collected. If some people choose to collect (hoard) them, that's great.

I recently saw in an auction an AMC Pacer that had something like 7,000 original miles on it. It still went for very small money. The car, simply, isn't desirable even to low-mileage collectors !!!

I guess it's a philosophical question that has many different facets. I appreciate a little used, cherry collector car as much as the next guy, but I can't imagine putting one in a sterile garage and never driving it, keeping it in a state of suspended animation forever. What happens once you die?

I own a 57,000 mile 1969 300SEL 6.3. The car is all original, original paint, original leather, four owner car. It was purchased here in Portland at the MB dealer, and the original salesman still works at said dealer some 36 years later. It currently holds the national record for 1/4 mile times for a stock 6.3 -- 15.07 seconds. I race the car regularly during the summer, and I drive it to work a few times a year as well. My collector insurance policy and state "historic" plates limit the amount of driving that I can do each year to ~2,000 miles. The car is mechanically perfect and VERY strong. There is not one speck of rust on this car.

That being said, I purchased the car 6 years ago with 47,000 miles on it and have driven it regularly, but sparingly, while I've owned it. In 2003 I drove it 1,100 miles over three days in the annual Northwest Classic Car Rally, and had NO qualms doing so. Even if it would have been 5,000 miles, I still would have done it. Because to me, ownership should include enjoyment of the car both aesthetically (parked) and through driving experience (in motion).

If I parked and hermetically sealed my 6.3, it would rot and disappear within 3 years.

If you want to see it, you can see it on the Internet at:
http://homepage.mac.com/gerryvz/PhotoAlbum13.html

As far as my E500, it has been modified with a nitrous-oxide system engineered specifically for the car. For racing, I use drag-racing tires. Stock the car can do 14.07-14.2 (high 14.1s & low-mid 14.2s repeatably) seconds in the quarter mile at 99 MPH.

Yes I know that there is a huge horsepower war going on right now. But how desirable to a collector will a Cadillac CTS-V be in 10 years? Look at the Allante for some sense of indication. I can guarantee that the 500E will have a far higher level of collector interest than these mass-produced Cadillacs and Hondas, not to mention the E55 AMGs. How desirable today is a W210 E55 AMG?

The 500E was engineered specifically to be what it is. Like the 300SEL 6.3, the chassis was modified and strengthened specifically for the drivetrain and for the performance level of the car. Look at a W210 or W211 E55 AMG. These are ordinary, assembly-line-produced W210s and W211s that are tarted up with nicer interiors and higher feature levels, some basic no-brain suspension mods, and a handbuilt AMG engine dropped in.

The 500E was HONESTLY and TRULY handbuilt by Porsche craftsmen, tuned on the track by Porsche, and dozens of chassis and body mods were performed specifically for this car in anticipation of its higher level of performance. Look at 400E and 500E values for comparison. There is no comparison.

Knowledgeable mechanics, multiple indy shop owners, former MB dealer sales reps/employees, and a certain LARGE MB wrecking yard owner I know in Europe, tell me to a man that the W210 AMG E55s are junk. That's their word, "junk". They all also say that the 500E is MUCH more desirable and a better overall driving car.

Anybody can drop a big engine into a small or mid-sized car and make a hot-rod. Pontiac discovered this in the early 1960s with the GTO. That's all that the current crop of over-horsepowered monstrosities are, including Benz cars. Except that today's cars have levels of quality and aesthetics (chrome, leather, real wood, a la 6.3) that are too expensive and improbable to achieve today.

Cheers,
Gerry

shane · #14 01-11-2005, 03:17 PM

Beautiful 6.3 you have! Your not exactly putting alot of miles on it are you? I have a '60 cadillac eldorado biarritz I have had for 9 years. I have put 12k miles on it since I purchased it with 69k orig miles. Drove it all the way from Dallas to Santa Fe last year. Great drive. Also have a '89 GTA with 8k orig miles, and a '81 seville with 11k orig miles. Seville just won best in class at the 2004 cadillac grand national after I did a complete bare metal respray with a high, base coat, pearl coat, clear coat, quality repaint. The GTA has not been entered into a contest just yet.
I drive my cars as well. I just do not drive my collector cars everyday as transportation. I think we are arguing the same point here after all...

Jim's500E · #15 01-11-2005, 05:18 PM

We can't really classify the 500E as a 'collector car' ... just yet....can we?