It looks like Jared Diamond has some competition:

http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=tqm4xd5mqkk5px43d968m19qmf4w3g5y

How Christianity (and Capitalism) Led to Science
By RODNEY STARK

When Europeans first began to explore the globe, their greatest surprise was not the existence of the Western Hemisphere, but the extent of their own technological superiority over the rest of the world. Not only were the proud Maya, Aztec, and Inca nations helpless in the face of European intruders, so were the fabled civilizations of the East: China, India, and Islamic nations were "backward" by comparison with 15th-century Europe. How had that happened? Why was it that, although many civilizations had pursued alchemy, the study led to chemistry only in Europe? Why was it that, for centuries, Europeans were the only ones possessed of eyeglasses, chimneys, reliable clocks, heavy cavalry, or a system of music notation? How had the nations that had arisen from the rubble of Rome so greatly surpassed the rest of the world? . . . . . . . .

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It seems odd that he quotes Tertullian as a rationalist. Tertullian is most well known for the statement, "I believe because it is absurd."

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Thanks for the read. My father is co-authoring a book on early church history in America. I don't have any other details at the moment, but have forwarded the link to him for his feedback.

Interesting, I read an article a while back that said the dominance of Europe could be traced to freakishly good weather and soil conditions in the 10th? century. Almost the same path described in the article but more agri centered. Essentially that the people went from just sustaining themselves to having a surplus which they could sell, which led to the rise of capitalism and the diversification from an almost purely agrarian society to a merchant/industrial society.

In this European smelting pot, full of competition's outcasts and masters, from the straights of Gilbralta to the depths of blackest forests, from the steeps of Asia sweeping in over the frozen marshes...

What other glue but capital can hold these foreigners together and measure their efforts worth? Sacs of salt and pepper await...

Surely my good Hun's stirrups serve me well even here in the land of my Christian mother, where the signs have told of foreboding things to come and of great victorys that await us and our tribe.

More furious than the greek's fire we will rein out over the horizon...
out past the windmills to the tall sails beyond them... for my father's lands grow smaller as his sons multiply...

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-Marty

1986 300E 220,000 miles+ transmission impossible
(Now waiting under a bridge in order to become one)

Reading your M103 duty cycle:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showpost.php?p=831799&postcount=13
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showpost.php?p=831807&postcount=14

Don't forget the wheel, that simple labor saving device. The American Indian did not have the wheel. Why? I have pondered this for many years.

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"Won"? What does that mean, exactly?

In terms of evolutionary theory, the west isn't close, if you mean whitey. China kicks evolutionary butt by having far more reproductive offspring in existence. It ain't the territory or toys that define evolutionary success, it is your gene's frequency, for extended family's, and your races proportion in the population.

Whitey is losing.

B

I'm taking a wild stab in the dark here, but Stark seems to mean something like, 'Enables me to think that my culture is best.'

I don't think he means whitey. I think he means 'scientific capitalism'. China is adopting capitalism so the west has won.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I guess so. I kind of think of science and capitalism as tools, not as a culture. I'm a Marxist of some sort because I think that the whole culture thing is evolving, though less quickly than scienctific capitalism.

For example, because of science we can now reasonably separate coitus into two goals: reproduction and pleasure. By separating them we have removed the most important reason for the taboos surrounding sexual intercourse. Everybody knows that the taboo is crumbling but we sure as heck have no idea what is going to replace it. Also, since we have separated coitus into two functions we are faced with asking why homosexuals can't have pleasure-sex, too? Another taboo crumbles.

Their was a great empire once, it was called Rome. The scary part is the Romans were about a step away from creating a steam engine 2k years ago. It is a damn shame they didn't we would be colonizing the stars now.

Rome may have still fallen but maybe not if they sparked an industrial revolution.

Technoligy is different among societies as they develope. In this day and age their are still people that live in huts and hunt with spears. Compare that to the cutting edge of society that wants to put a permenant base on the moon and mars.

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finally you have seen the light on iraq!

right?

tom w

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..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Guns, Germs, and Steel

Link did not work for me. It this a my god is
better than yours so I can kill you and take
you land theory?

Good point. I think the underlying debate concerns the nature of the 'causes' that produce social dominance. Jared is a scientist and materialist in his explanations. It's either geography, germs, climate, or access to certain natural resources for him. Stark seems to be appealing to ideas. I need to read his whole book but I'm definitely not very convinced so far. He claims Augustine is a rationalist of sorts, but Augustine's view of original sin infects all of intellectual life with a moral defect so I don't see him as a great hero of rational theology. I also am not convinced that 'Christianity' can get the credit for 'rational theology'. It was those pagan greeks who pushed that development. Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus, and friends don't appeal to holy texts to justify their ideas. I do agree with Stark that Weber's view that the Protestant Ethic drove capitalism is not very credible. I don't see how accumulating wealth helped reassure they protestants they were bound for heaven.
The other issue is that of 'accident'. A dimwitted European neanderthal stumbles across the wheel and the travoise culture of NA indians is destined for oblivion. Or, as koop points out, a few good years of weather helps the Europeans cross over some crucial population barrier and the rest of the world ends up speaking English.

There are similar debates about the decline of the Islamic Empire and rise of Europe. I've tried to argue that the distribution of coal deposits (there are not that many in the Islamic world and a lot in Europe) helps explain the decline of Islam but I've never gotten very far with that.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

David Brooks has a column in the NYT today, weighing in on Stark's side. My subscription is not high enough up in the hierarchy to allow me to link it here.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Me neither. Waiting for the Monarch Notes.