Would you die for your country? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Hatterasguy · #1 07-07-2006, 12:06 AM

Now here is a serious question, give it some thought. I was thinking about this lately since the 4th of July just passed. All those people during the revolution stood up to the worlds most powerful country at the time, and slugged it out very often toe to toe. The British army and navy of the 18th century was one of the finest, best trained, and most seasoned.

That would be like the Iraq insurgents fighting head to head with the full strength of our forces and driving us from the field!

So would you have the balls to stand their as the people you know all around you are dropping and fire back? Knowing full well that the next volley may be heading your way?

This is an interesting question, one that I cannot fully answer myself. I hope the answer is yes, certainly everyone has to die at some point. I love this country enough that it certianly would be possible.

Tom Clancy time:
The year is 2015, the most of the west coast is gone, destroyed by a Chiness first strike. The PLA has just landed in force in northern and southern CA. The Russians are moving down through Alaska and Canada. What would you do? Run? Stay put? Surrender?

MTI · #2 07-07-2006, 12:11 AM

The Snopes Recap of the Fate of Signers of the Declaration of Independence

How about dying for a country that your not even a citizen of.

Dying for a country whose majority doesn't think you deserve equal rights?

Dying for a country that has imprisoned your entire family merely because of their ethnic background?

t walgamuth · #3 07-07-2006, 12:11 AM

actually the insurgents are fighting us much the way we fought the british. we were not strong enough to fight them toe to toe so we pulled back from the coast where their supplies were and picked our places to fight. washington was very careful not to go toe to toe except under a very few circumstances where his army could win.

i too wonder if i could have done it. i am definately too old now. i would just have to run and hide. or maybe i would just sit in my benz and make car noises so they would think i was crazy and hope they let me live.

tom w

AustinsCE · #4 07-07-2006, 12:19 AM

200 hundred years ago sure. Nowadays, no chance. 2015 Clancy world, if I saw any of them they'd definitely run into resistance. Otherwise, none of my business. if they're strong enough to take over, they will.

Hatterasguy · #5 07-07-2006, 12:22 AM

Please don't bring politics into this. Their are a million what if's.

Tom Clancy world: If they were invading I'd head to the front lines. As they say "Live free or die".

Actualy at least one of the relatives, maybe two have their names on the Declaration of Independence. They did just fine after the war.

Botnst · #6 07-07-2006, 07:58 AM

Patton.

B

#7 07-07-2006, 08:08 AM

I used to think that most people would have the balls to fight but after I joined Mercedes Shop dot com that has changed. I suspect that 50% of the people would run for the hills or become traitors and the other 49% would fight and 1% would join the fight on their own budget, throw out the Geneva convention and cause some serious problems for the invaders.....I would be in that 1%.

t walgamuth · #8 07-07-2006, 08:15 AM

i cant speak from personal experience, but based on my reading about war, and i have read hundreds of books about it, i believe that if you take a person at random from the united states, put them through the standard military training, and put them into a battle situation, very very few will fail to perform.

once you are in the group and you get to know your fellow soldiers, you do not want to let them down. and when the time comes, you fight. there are exceptions, but mostly we fight.

patriotism is just a small thing compared to the dedication to your fellow soldiers at the time of battle stress.

once you are in there you just want to survive and for your fellows to survive. and you will pretty much do whatever it takes for that to happen.

tom w

Botnst · #9 07-07-2006, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MedMech

I used to think that most people would have the balls to fight but after I joined Mercedes Shop dot com that has changed. I suspect that 50% of the people would run for the hills or become traitors and the other 49% would fight and 1% would join the fight on their own budget, throw out the Geneva convention and cause some serious problems for the invaders.....I would be in that 1%.

At no time has 49% of the population, or even just the male population, been in a war. Even when this country has been invaded. The majority of people encourage other people to do the job. Later the people who didn't get involved begrudge medical assistance to those who return as damaged goods.

Reminds me of Kipling's poem.

Tommy" by Rudyard Kipling

I WENT into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it’s "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,—
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,—
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,—
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,—
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there’s trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool—you bet that Tommy sees!

t walgamuth · #10 07-07-2006, 08:40 AM

yes that is about right.

back in the viet nam era, though, to be sure i didnt want to go to nam, i never understood the folks who called the returning vets baby killers and such.

to me they were kids who were mostly drafted and went and did what they were called to do and had no choice. they were victims just as surely as the people who were killed or maimed in the war.

to any body who fought there or in any war, you have my utmost respect, gratitude and sympathy.

and as far as what you would do if confronted, you won't ever know til you get there.

i have read that the folks who saw the worst action just won't talk about it, for the most part. the ww2 vets, many of them, have begun to talk about it in the last few years when they are 75 and 80. it was just too painful before.

tom w

pxland · #11 07-07-2006, 08:59 AM

In your 2015 example, when the fight is brought to me and we need to defend our inalienable rights and the country is truly in danger I would fight and die (though hopefully not the last part).

But I guess it depends on your definition of fighting for your country. I wouldn't give my life in the Iraq war. I'm quite sure that our "enemy" there sees things the same way as I do. Fight off the christian invaders or else lose your country and your faith (and your oil).

Discalimer - I am not wanting to engage anyone in political debate with my above comment. I am merely answering a thought provoking question which is one of the best we've had around here in awhile. I try very hard to stay out of "arguments" of political or religious nature here lest I be banished.

Plantman · #12 07-07-2006, 09:05 AM

I would be a fighter, although as a last resort if we were overrun by some strange reason.

I am not nor have been a soldier so I may think differently,but I'm thinking family first and I need to be around, so I would pick my battles.

If I were a soldier, I wouldn't have much choice.

.02

Botnst · #13 07-07-2006, 09:11 AM

PXLand, I understand what you meant, all of it. I'm more than a little tired of the argument, too.

Moving right along....

When a soldier (airman, sailor, marine) signs up he (she) pretty much cedes his rights as a citizen to self-determination. To the greatest degree, his fate is in the hands of others and it doesn't matter whether he's an E-1 recruit or an O-7 admiral, lawful orders will be obeyed. The soldier in combat has some degree of control over whether he lives or dies, but certainly not as much control as we citizens enjoy.

I am reminded of Shakespeare's dialogue between Henry V and his soldier's on the eve of an epic battle. The King's identity was hidden from the soldiers.

KING HENRY V

I dare say you love him not so ill, to wish him here
alone, howsoever you speak this to feel other men's
minds: methinks I could not die any where so
contented as in the king's company; his cause being
just and his quarrel honourable.

WILLIAMS

That's more than we know.

BATES

Ay, or more than we should seek after; for we know
enough, if we know we are the kings subjects: if
his cause be wrong, our obedience to the king wipes
the crime of it out of us.

WILLIAMS

But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath
a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and
arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join
together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at
such a place;' some swearing, some crying for a
surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind
them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their
children rawly left. I am afeard there are few die
well that die in a battle; for how can they
charitably dispose of any thing, when blood is their
argument? Now, if these men do not die well, it
will be a black matter for the king that led them to
it; whom to disobey were against all proportion of
subjection.

KING HENRY V

So, if a son that is by his father sent about
merchandise do sinfully miscarry upon the sea, the
imputation of his wickedness by your rule, should be
imposed upon his father that sent him: or if a
servant, under his master's command transporting a
sum of money, be assailed by robbers and die in
many irreconciled iniquities, you may call the
business of the master the author of the servant's
damnation: but this is not so: the king is not
bound to answer the particular endings of his
soldiers, the father of his son, nor the master of
his servant; for they purpose not their death, when
they purpose their services. Besides, there is no
king, be his cause never so spotless, if it come to
the arbitrement of swords, can try it out with all
unspotted soldiers: some peradventure have on them
the guilt of premeditated and contrived murder;
some, of beguiling virgins with the broken seals of
perjury; some, making the wars their bulwark, that
have before gored the gentle bosom of peace with
pillage and robbery. Now, if these men have
defeated the law and outrun native punishment,
though they can outstrip men, they have no wings to
fly from God: war is his beadle, war is vengeance;
so that here men are punished for before-breach of
the king's laws in now the king's quarrel: where
they feared the death, they have borne life away;
and where they would be safe, they perish: then if
they die unprovided, no more is the king guilty of
their damnation than he was before guilty of those
impieties for the which they are now visited. Every
subject's duty is the king's; but every subject's
soul is his own. Therefore should every soldier in
the wars do as every sick man in his bed, wash every
mote out of his conscience: and dying so, death
is to him advantage; or not dying, the time was
blessedly lost wherein such preparation was gained:
and in him that escapes, it were not sin to think
that, making God so free an offer, He let him
outlive that day to see His greatness and to teach
others how they should prepare.

jlomon · #14 07-07-2006, 11:33 AM

I could kill for my country, without a doubt. But die for it? I just don't know. I sometimes think of the sacrifices of my grandfather and great-grandfather when I walk past the cenotaphs in Toronto. They volunteered to fight because the Empire needed them, not because Canada was directly threatened. Stephen Ambrose has reminded us time and time again that the Allies accomplished everything in the second world war with a citizen army, again without direct threat to the North American continent. Yes, Japan attacked Pearl Harbour, but the American response could have been to wage war in the Pacific and leave Europe to the Europeans. But that wasn't how it played out.

I would like to think that I'm made of the stuff of those of the "greatest generation" but if I'm being 100% honest with myself, I'm not. I've grown too soft enjoying the freedoms they fought to preserve. I care too much for my wife and son to go off to war and potentially leave them without support. I would be afraid.

As I said, I know I could kill for my country if it was invaded. If the opportunity for "insurgent" action came about, even it it was just killing some footsoldier from the oppressor's army, I could do it without hesitation. But that isn't the same as walking away from my comfortable life and loved-ones to fight and die for something bigger. Kind of like Pat Tillman (sp?) did.

crash9 · #15 07-07-2006, 12:35 PM

It's not optional. You fight for your life – then your buds life – your property and family. We don't live in a time that it's something you ponder.