i think the iraqis are pretty well armed too.

i think sadaam stashed lots and lots of weapons around different places to use against our troops after the first military push in which our conventional army dispersed his. (note i say dispersed not destroyed. our govt declared it destroyed but it really was dispersed).

i remember a year ago or so my repub buddies i eat lunch with saying that all you had to do in iraq was tell them if anyone was seen in public with a gun he would be immediately shot. this was their plan to pacify iraq.

i said " ridiculous...everybody in iraq has a gun, for self defense from each other... you gonna shoot the friendlys along with the unfriendlys?"

folks here have no clue about the local culture there.

i have no clue either, but i did visit morrocco in 1973 for a month so maybe i have 3% of a clue compared to most americans who have 0%.

tom w

I have a huge amount of experience with Americans. We are not a patient lot and we look to instant gratification. We think to ourselves that X has had plenty of time to do Y and shouldn't they be done now? Rather than look to why this isn't the case or maybe shouldn't be the case we start to complain. There is much truth to the statement that Rome wasn't built in a day. Iraq won't be, nor a peaceful middle east. There's a lot of pain and suffereing in the future for us and them and no gaurantee of success. There is a gaurantee of failure if we pull all American interests back to America and decide not to play with anyone in the rest of the world. That would be failure for us and them (a peaceful ME).

Keeping a presence in parts of the world is way different than invading a country, bombing all sorts of stuff to smithereens, and slaughtering untold numbers of the country's patriotic youth.

And the wasting of Falujah will not be forgotten in our lifetimes.

Look how quickly the communist leader the Sovits installed in Afghanistan was ousted after the Soviet pullout. They shot him didn't they? Oh, found it:

Muhammad Najibullah

President of Afghanistan, 1987–1992
Born: 1947
Birthplace: Kabul, Afghanistan

Grandson of a Pashtun tribal chief, Najibullah joined the Communist Party when he was a student. After he earned a medical degree in 1975, he became a member of the party's central committee. The Soviet Union installed Najibullah as secretary general of the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan in 1986. He became president the following year. After the Soviets withdrew from the Afghanistan in 1989, Najibullah continued to lead a weak, discredited government. When the mujahideen captured Kabul in 1992, they deposed Najibullah and organized an unstable interim coalition government. The Taliban defeated the interim government and took Kabul in 1996. They executed Najibullah, hanging him from a goalpost in the main soccer stadium.
Died: 1996

If Iraq embraces democracy, they'll do it on their own. Long after we've gone.

we are losing much more by being there than we can ever hope to win by being there.

leaving will be bad. if we leave sooner rather than later it will be bad. if we stay a long time (we already have actually) and then leave it will be bad. if we never leave, it will be bad.

nothing about the entire situation is good... no matter how it is spun, it is not good.

a few folks still apparantely believe it is good.... God only knows how.

tom w

Rather presumptuous, aren't you?

I think he is correct for the most part. Some here are somewhat well versed, no doubt. Just the thought that we could bomb the place silly and then everyone would come out and say "Whew! I'm glad we got that out of the way! Now show us how to form a democracy, please!" indicates a broad level of naivete.

Point out the ignorant bastard who said that and I'll help you lynch him.

When one makes condescending generalizations about people, it becomes far easier to dismiss whatever they say.

B

My words were sarcastic. Still, Cheney, Bush, et. al. had wildly optimistic ideas about what military might could accomplish in Iraq. They read their own reviews and concluded it was good: full steam ahead.

And what was with that "shock and awe" crap? AWE?!? It doesn't look to me like there was any awe going around that meant anything.

"Awe, $h!t," maybe.

How about an excercise. You try not to write the words Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld for the next week. Keep your generalization broad and not specific. You're free to say whatever you believe.

1. I don't think you can do it.
2. If you did, your arguments would improve.
3. You might learn something.

Remember, I prefer the term hegemaniacal to imperiousness.

You disagree?

I admit it is a generalization. ..and as Twain (I think) said, "Generalizations arent worth a damn...including this one".

Let's hear your statement about the level of understanding by our countrymen of our islamic and arabic brothers, or really any other country for that matter.

Tom W

I will give you one, your brothers have shot at me and mortared our barracks while we tried to put food in their undeserving mouths. How much time have you spent with your brothers? Speak for yourself you will never comprehend the brutality that is part of their everyday life....you may find out if they show up in your neighborhood.

My goal is to keep their numbers to a minimum.

and thank you. this is the perfect illustration of my point.

tom w

Dude-a-mers: when talking about our involvement in Iraq, there is no point in leaving those guys out of the discussion. They pushed hard for our current policy, they had (at one time) a majority of American opinion behind their policy, and they continue to push for their preferences by using the bully pulpit to the max, not to mention all manner of propaganda.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87...warprez_lr.jpg

Being dismissive is such hard work, you need a break.

Illustrate your point tell us about your travels to the middle east in the last 20 years. T walgamuth not Mark Twain.