Yeah they voted, and the message they voted in was, we hate the Sunni/Shia (pick one). Voting does not equal civilization.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

I wonder why their numbers are growing? Wouldn't have anything to do with having fulfilled OBL's prophecy by invading an Arab land and shepherding its oil would it?

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

No, I think treating the situation like it was a law enforcement issue was one of the main reasons we were attacked succesfully on 9/11.

It is clearly a failed way of dealing with this issue.

Being on the offensive and giving the terrorists little time to do anything but hide and defend plus making a giant "terrorist magnet" in Afhghanistan and Iraq and going after their financial structure are what have kept us unattacked since 9/11.

It is but a matter of time before we are again attacked though.

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

__________________
1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Says who?Well, even W now thinks the program is a bad idea. That's a red flag right there. I don't know the details of the CIA program, so I can't really comment. My point was that W seemed to have a problem with abiding by the Constitution and the Geneva Convention. The first is impermissible, period. The second seems foolish to me and to credible commentators such as Senator McCain.

BTW, the basis for my saying that Bush as a problem with the Constitution is his complaint that the Supreme Court has taken away a valuable tool. Well, sorry W, but since the beginning of this country, the Supreme Court is the supreme authority on the Constitution. So the Constitution may have taken away a valuable tool, but the Court didn't take away anything.

You seem to think there is a fixed number of terrorists. They're getting in a lot of practice in Iraq w/o having to go to the expense of entering our country.

Sometime retreat puts you in a stronger position.

__________________
1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Worked out great for Israel last month.

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

What they were doing wasn't working out so well was it. And now, after untold children get their hands blown off with cluster bomblets, there'll be a few more willing recruits.

There are no easy answers here. Bit it's definitely not WW2 where more deadly force will win the day.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

I got no answers.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

That about sums up everything we been talking about.

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

I'm very worried that we'll have to experience some more 9/11's prior to us achieving that unity.

Hope I'm wrong.

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

We should leave it there. I don't think anybody can disagree with that.

That depends on how you define "civillians".

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
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September 08, 2006
How to Win or Lose Iraq's Civil War
By Charles Krauthammer

WASHINGTON -- As the Democrats turn themselves into the anti-war party, as popular support for the war continues to sink, as some who initially signed on to the war now heap scorn on the entire Iraqi project, the question of immediate withdrawal must be confronted.

There are two rationales for withdrawing from -- let's be honest: abandoning -- Iraq: (a) Iraq is not worth it, and (b) worth it or not, the cause is lost.

The first rationale was articulated most recently by John Kerry: "Iraq is not the center of the war on terror. The president keeps saying it is. The president keeps trying to push that down America's throat. It's wrong, it's a mistake and it's losing us the ability to do what we need to do in the region.''

This is absurd. If the United States leaves, the central government in Iraq will collapse, and the beneficiaries will be Iran, Syria and al-Qaeda, the three major terror actors in the world today. It would not just be a psychological victory, but a territorial one. Al-Qaeda will gain a base in Mesopotamia; Syria and Iran will share spheres of influence in what's left of the Iraqi state.

We might come out of this with an independent Kurdistan that could be a base for U.S. military power, but it would be a shrunken presence in a roiling area, a tragically small consolation prize.

One can argue that we should therefore have left Saddam in place. That assumes a stable and benign status quo ante. Both assumptions are false. But assume for a moment that the critics are right. That's the argument that should have been made -- that Kerry should have made -- four years ago, before he voted yes, before he voted no, before he voted yes on the war. At this point, it is simply indisputable that the collapse of Iraq's constitutional government would represent an enormous gain for the forces of terror.

The other rationale for withdrawal is that the war is lost and therefore it is unconscionable to make one more American soldier die for a cause that cannot be salvaged.

It is a serious argument from which we have been distracted during the last several months by the increasingly absurd debate over the meaning of the term "civil war,'' and whether Iraq is in one.

Of course it is. It began when the Sunni minority, unwilling to accept the finality of the Baathist defeat, began making indiscriminate war on the Kurdish-Shiite majority that had inherited the country as a result of the U.S. invasion.

Iraq is not Spain in the 1930s or America in the 1860s, but whether the phrase "civil war'' is to be used is irrelevant. The relevant question is, can we still win, meaning can we leave behind a functioning, self-sustaining, Western-friendly constitutional government?

And that depends on whether the government of Nouri al-Maliki can face up to its two potentially mortal threats: the Sunni insurgency and the challenge from Moqtada al-Sadr.

The vast majority of Sunnis are fighting not for ideology but for a share of power and (oil) money. A deal with them is eminently possible and could co-opt enough Sunnis to greatly shrink the insurgency. Even now, the insurgents have the capacity to massacre civilians and kill coalition soldiers with roadside bombs, but they have never demonstrated the capacity for the kind of sustained unit action that ultimately overthrows governments and wins civil wars. (See Castro, Mao, North Vietnam.)

Our ambassador in Baghdad has been urging the Maliki government to make the bargain. He has also been urging it to get serious about the growing internal threat of Sadr's Mahdi militia, which is responsible for much of the recent sectarian violence and threatens to either marginalize or supplant the central government.

The only positive element in Sadr's rise has been a fracturing of the united Shiite front that can now allow some cross-sectarian (Sunni-Shiite) deals and alliances. But that requires a Maliki government decisively willing to deal with the Sunnis and take on Sadr.

On Thursday, Maliki took over operational control of the Iraqi armed forces, the one national security institution that works. He needs to demonstrate the will to use it. The American people will support a cause that is noble and necessary, but not one that is unwinnable. And without a central Iraqi government willing to act in its own self-defense, this war will be unwinnable.

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

The strategy is fine. The execution sucks. That is why there is a problem. Let the military do what it should do instead of hamstringing them all day long.

No, we should have hunted them down and made them pay. That is the sort of thing that scares them. Find those responsible. Make them beg for death. Well, you realize that now you have shown yourself to be weak. That means you are open to more problems. Sometimes, you cannot back down just because. People will prey on the weak.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow