People voluntarily segregate themselves all day long...there are very few churches that are not segregated, for instance. And it's not all directed toward black people. Xenophobia is a normal human thing.

Mongrels are the best...the mix makes them, how shall I put this...más caliente...:D

Or at least that is what California's Gobernator thinks.

And? My great grandmother is 96 or 97 years old, my great grandfather died about 7 years ago. I respect them and care for them but they have little if any affect on my life. My grandparents on the other hand, thats a totaly different story.

Our country is young, and I am pretty sure if I looked into it my family held slaves, probably a fair number. But the past is the past, I was born in 1985, what happened in the mid 19th century doesn't have any bearing on my life beyond a history test.

I still stick by what I said before, it ended in 1865 there is no one alive who was directly affected by slavery. If you were 100 years old, maybe your grand parents could have been slaves, I could see that.

As generalization I agree with you. And since I've worked in the gov for the past couple of decades my perspective is likely to be heavily skewed because prior to GS I worked in the oil industry. In most instances the oil industry is a highly competitive meritocracy. for example, I went from day laborer to running a survey crew in Argentina in 3 years. I worked my butt of from before daybreak to after dark 6 or 7 days a week. My employers rewarded me with more work and significant pay increases. At that time there were just a few African-Americans working in surveying and they were all laborers, like me. I was lucky for 2 reasons: First, that my superiors were looking for talent as their company expanded and second because I was white. There is no doubt in my mind that any man who worked hard could have gotten ahead at that time (it isn't always the case). My bosses made no secret of having a racial preference and I benefitted by it.

Had A.A. NOT been held as a threat over employers heads I have absolutely no doubt that most white supervisors would have preferentially hired and advanced whites. That was the way the world was back then and it sucked for minorities.

My final example is this. I had three Hispanic guys working for me, none of whom spoke English. They were smart and hard-working but poorly educated. But they were eager as heck to do anything I asked of them so I started teaching them trigonometry and drawing. They were ignorant and uneducated, not stupid. It was still slow going for them because of the language barrier and because of their lack of formal education passed I'd guess 5th grade math. But they were determined and I couldn't ask for better hands so we worked on it. I got transferred to Michigan from Wyoming. I asked the guys if they wanted to go with me or stay in Wyoming and I was gratified that they wanted to go with me. My company paid for the move and they drove some company vehicles.

We were in Michigan for several weeks and some union guy wanted us to organize. I wasn't interested, like most oilfield guys. Apparently nobody else did either. A short time later, maybe a week or so, we got visited by the INS and 2 of my guys were not citizens and they got deported. Ask me what I think of unions.

Bot

You probably like them about as much as I do. ;)

Mike

My 'appreciation' comes from being damned certain they were the ones who dropped a dime on my guys AFTER we declined the union representation. I think it was just meanness. They could hurt people and pay no consequences so they did. I can imagine them laughing about it to this day. Bastards.

B

On the subject of adults who want to be treated like spoiled children and refuse to accept responsibility for themselves, union members are at the top of the list. They are effectively welfare recipients, being paid $25/hr for menial work and in the case of UAW workers, getting 95% of base pay even when the plant is closed.

I was a member of management at a company whose delivery drivers were teamsters. If you asked a driver to do something he didn't feel like doing, his response was "talk to my steward" which was effectively "let my daddy deal with it because I don't feel like it". Don't get me started!

I have an x-brother in law who worked at the DaimlerChrysler plant in Fenton MO...UAW worker. He missed more than 1/2 of his scheduled days the last year he was there, due to a meth problem, but the union protected him and kept his job for him...until he got busted selling meth in the plant, then he was finally gone. At a normal job he would have been out on his ear a long time ago...and this was a guy with a GED, not exactly a genius, making $60,000 a year. Now that he blew that gig and is out of prison, he works odd jobs and by my guesstimate, is living in poverty. One could argue that, given his education, skill set and job history, that's where he belonged all along.

Whatever "directly" means. Your earlier comment was broader:Slavery actually ended in 1863, not 1865, but there is no way that the effects of slavery ended then. IMHO, slavery's aftermath is still with us. It's not an excuse for the dysfunction described by Bill Cosby. Likewise, the Emancipation Proclamation is not an excuse for those who wield the power in this country to assume that we have a level playing field. That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to make any larger point than that.

Ok, understood. There were still slaves up until the south surrendered. Only Slaves in waring states were freed, slaves in Union border states remained.

first the chain gang. how much more enforced could it be? there were guys with shotguns watching them.

second. the restaruant. i saw what i saw. ALL whites on one side of the aisle next to the windows. ALL blacks aginst the blank wall, closer to the noise of the kitchen. i suppose you can see coincedence there. i dont. my freind who was traveling with me saw it the same way i did.

YOU can see whatever you want to, too.

tom w

unions?
 

my favorite union bumper sticker is:

"organized labor...the folks who brought you the weekend".

unions have done a lot of good in this country. the country has a very short memory. before unions, blue collar folks worked six or seven days a week twelve to fourteen hours a day, died young and never had anything.

unions brought blue collar folks into the middle class. made them consumers. got them health insurance and pensions. they all bought houses two cars a boat a harley etc. this drove our economy and helped place our country where it is. the economic leader of the world.

now many of my friends, i swear, believe that blue collar folks should not have anything and should not be able to be middle class and would like nothing better than to push the blue collar folks back down. at present these folks seem to be winning.

now i have worked on jobs that were union. teamsters even. a lot of what is complained about here i have seen first hand. there is no doubt that there have been abuses. but before the unions got power, the abuses by the big industrial employers were just huge.

here in lafayette we have several large factorys that are non union. cat is the most prominent example. the guys that work there ( alot of them) like to say "who needs a union, they treat me just fine. i make $35/ hr. etc etc."

if there was not a union in the peoria cat plant there is NO WAY IN H*LL that they would have it as good as they have it here....NO WAY.

so i am not a hard core union organizer but i appreciate what they have done for working folks. if they continue to lose stature and the laws are changed, it will not be good for anybody. working conditions and wages and our economic prosperity will all decline drastically.

so dont be too hard on them,... they really did bring you the weekend.

tom w

Yes, it annoys and alienates the people he criticizes -- who will absolutely not take his advice -- and therefore does nothing to solve the problem.

The great purpose it really serves, in the minds of many white people, is to absolve them of any sense of responsibility or guilt for the impact of their historical and current day attitudes and behaviors on the lives of Black people.

How did I miss this one:

You mean, people like Cosby? :idea2:

Should he be out there trying to improve things? And if so, how -- by insulting and yelling at people, or by rolling up his sleeves and actually doing something meaningful?

For generations, Blacks wanted one thing above all: To be ordinary Americans. But they were denied. Now many say "F**k it." I may not agree, but I definitely understand.

Wait -- I thought it was the Black people who had the herd mentality and followed leaders in a groupthink manner?

Some of them, with funny names like "Kanye" (West), "Snoop," "Nas," "2-Pac," etc. have gone straight to the bank, cashing in on Hip Hop culture, selling music with garbled lyrics to millions of non-black listeners. By the way, what do you think of Eminem?

In their minds, society will not accept them one way or another. Is their attitude, therefore, really surprising?